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Bronze Dragon (Michaelwalker)
Starlite Moderator
Username: Michaelwalker
| | Posted on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 06:21 pm: | 
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The Meter Reader
Of all of the aspects of the challenges we’ve faced here in the Form Over Substance challenge, I think the most difficult for many to grasp has been iambic pentameter. Meter in general is such a foreign concept to most people who have not studied it, that to suggest a set meter and try to explain it is difficult. Therefore, I shall try my best, and if you have any questions, please post them here in this thread. I’ll answer them as quickly as I can.
The hardest thing to grasp in iambic pentameter is the concept of the actual iamb. Pentameter is easy, as it simply means that the line has five metrical feet, or generally 10 syllables. Dictionary.com defines an iamb as “a metrical foot consisting of an unstressed syllable followed by a stressed syllable or a short syllable followed by a long syllable.” Further, a metrical foot is “a group of 2 or 3 syllables forming the basic unit of poetic rhythm.” These two terms form the basis of how we write poetry, and iambic pentameter dates back to the 1600’s at least.
The following is from a website called everypoet.org, and was posted by Howard Miller. Hopefully, this provides a better insight into writing with iambic pentameter.
"I had occasion a few days ago to work up a list of the acceptable substitutions in strict iambic pentameter with examples. All the examples of the first three types are from Shakespeare's sonnets; the Roman numeral following each line identifies the sonnet from which it was taken. I thought it might be useful, so here 'tis:
There are 4 basic substitutions which are considered acceptable in standard iambic pentameter in current practice:
1. trochee--substituted in 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th foot of a pentameter line. There are problems with a trochee substituted as the 5th foot in rhyming poetry, because it throws off the rhyme, but 5th foot trochees do occur occasionally in blank verse.
Trochee Substitutions:
a. 1st foot: Wishing me like to one more rich in hope (XXIX)
/ WISH ing/ me LIKE/ to ONE/ more RICH/ in HOPE/
/ trochee/ iamb/ iamb/ iamb/ iamb/
b. 2nd foot: Might I not then say, "Now I love you best" (CXV)
/ might I/ NOT then/ SAY NOW/ i LOVE/ you BEST/
/ iamb/ trochee/ spondee/ iamb/ iamb/
c. 3rd foot: And trouble deaf heav'n with my bootless cries (XXIX)
/ and TROUB/ le DEAF/ HEAV'N with/ my BOOT/ less CRIES/
/ iamb/ iamb/ trochee/ iamb/ iamb/
d. 4th foot: Thou of thyself thy sweet self dost deceive (IV)
/ THOU of/ thy SELF/ thy SWEET/ SELF dost/ de CEIVE/
/ trochee/ iamb/ iamb/ trochee/ iamb/
2. spondee--substituted in any foot in a pentameter line.
Spondee Substitutions:
a. 1st foot: No more be grieved at that which thou hast done (XXXV)
/ NO MORE/ be GRIEVED/ at THAT/ which THOU/ hast DONE/
/ spondee/ iamb/ iamb/ iamb/ iamb/
b. 2nd foot: Gilding pale streams with heav'nly alchemy (XXXIII)
/ GILD ing/ PALE STREAMS/ with HEAV'n/ ly AL/ che MY/
/ trochee/ spondee/ iamb/ iamb/ iamb/
c. 3rd foot: From sullen earth, sings hymns at heaven's gate (XXIX)
/ from SUL/ len EARTH/ SINGS HYMNS/ at HEA/ ven's GATE/
/ iamb/ iamb/ spondee/ iamb/ iamb/
d. 4th foot: To say within thine own deep-sunken eyes (II)
/ to SAY/ with IN/ thine OWN/ DEEP SUNK/ en EYES/
/ iamb/ iamb/ iamb/ spondee/ iamb/
e. 5th foot: For thy sweet love remember'd such wealth brings (XXIX)
/ for THY/ sweet LOVE/ re MEM/ ber'd SUCH/ WEALTH BRINGS/
/ iamb/ iamb/ iamb/ iamb/ spondee/
3. double iamb--the combination of a pyrrhic foot followed by a spondaic foot. This can be substituted anywhere in a pentameter line, as 1st & 2nd feet, 2nd & 3rd, 3rd & 4th, or 4th & 5th.
Double Iamb Substitutions:
a. 1st &2nd feet: When that churl Death my bones with dust shall cover (XXXII)
/ when that/ CHURL DEATH/ my BONES/ with DUST/ shall COV/ [er]
{/ pyrrhic/ spondee/= double iamb / iamb/ iamb/ iamb/ [hypermetrical unstressed syllable]*
*[hypermetrical syllables are extra--i. e., beyond the normal 10 syllables--which are unstressed; such extra unstressed syllables at the end of a line are considered perfectly acceptable]
b. 2nd & 3rd feet: Within thine own bud buriest thy content (I)
/ with IN/ thine own/ BUD BUR/ iest THY/ con TENT/
/ iamb/ pyrrhic/ spondee = double iamb/ iamb/ iamb/
c. 3rd & 4th feet: To dry the rain on my storm-beaten face (XXXIV)
/ to DRY/ the RAIN/ on my/ STORM BEAT/ en FACE/
/ iamb/ iamb/ pyrrhic/ spondee = double iamb/ iamb/
d. 4th & 5th feet: But as the marigold at the sun's eye (XXV)
/ but AS/ the MAR/ i GOLD/ at the/ SUN'S EYE/
/ iamb/ iamb/ iamb/ pyrrhic/ spondee = double iamb
All three of these were known and practiced from the earliest days of sonnetwriting in English, in the second half of the 16th century. All three of them can be found regularly in Shakespeare. What's especially important to remember are two points:
(a) The "double iamb" (also called the "double ionic") is counted not as a substitution but as if it were actually two regular iambs.
(b) The number of substitutions must always be lower than the number of actual iambs in a line; that's why it's important to count a double iamb as two iambs, because you sometimes find lines such as Keats'
"Hold like rich garners the full ripen'd grain"
which scans as
/ HOLD like/ RICH GAR/ ners the/ FULL RI/ pen'd GRAIN/
/ trochee/ spondee/ pyrrhic/ spondee/ = double iamb iamb/
Our sense of this line is that it IS iambic, even though it contains only one actual iamb. However, in recognizing the double iamb occupying the 3rd & 4th feet, we see that there are actually 3 iambs here and only 2 substitutions, so the iambic normative meter is maintained.
There is a 4th substitution that is now also considered acceptable in strict IP, one that's been recognized only in the 20th century:
4. the acephalous or "headless" iamb--An iamb with the first unstressed syllable omitted.
"Running down the corridors of night"
This scans as:
/ ^ RUN/ ning DOWN/ the COR/ ri DORS/ of NIGHT/
/ headless iamb/ iamb/ iamb/ iamb/ iamb/
(the carat symbol ^ is used to denote the omitted syllable)
Headless Iamb Substitution:
The obsolete, redundant. We are sunk
Deep in things. That hermit crab, the soul (from "Moving Sale" by A. E. Stallings)
/ the OB/ so LETE/ re DUN/ dant WE/ are SUNK/
/ iamb/ iamb/ iamb/ iamb/ iamb/
/ ^ DEEP/ in THINGS/ that HER/ mit CRAB/ the SOUL/
/ headless iamb/ iamb/ iamb/ iamb/ iamb/
Additional examples:
Mark Jarman, "Unholy Sonnet 13":
Blessedness--not only in a face
/ ^ BLESS/ ed NESS/ not ON/ ly IN/ a FACE/
Hayden Carruth, Sonnets: "2":
Woman, I'm not sure of much. Are you?
/ ^ WO/ man I'M/ not SURE/ of MUCH/ are YOU/
Dana Gioia, "Sunday Night in Santa Rosa":
Wind sweeps ticket stubs along the walk
/ ^ WIND/ sweeps TICK/ et STUBS/ a LONG/ the WALK/
Don Paterson, "The Thread":
All that trouble just to turn up dead
/ ^ ALL/ that TROUB/ le JUST/ to TURN/ up DEAD/
There are also a couple of points to remember about the use of the headless iamb:
(a) Its first use should normally be in line 2 or later or a poem; the reader has to be able to see its use against an established background of iambic pentameter or he may easily read the line as trochaic.
(b) Its use should be restricted only to the 1st foot of a given line, not in any later feet. There are those who disagree with this approach, but I've found very, very few headless iambs used anywhere else in a line that worked--such lines always limp, to my ear.
The situation is more complicated than this, of course, when you start taking differing stress levels into account, because not all stressed syllables are stressed equally, but as a basic outline what I've given here is hopefully useful to those coming to grips with strict IP for the first time."
- Howard Miller
I’ll post more here on meter as time permits and questions arise. Please feel free to post any meter questions you have here, and either I or one of our other knowledgeable Starlite Café poets will answer it in due time.
Michael
Aka Bronze Dragon
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Bronze Dragon (Michaelwalker)
Starlite Moderator
Username: Michaelwalker
| | Posted on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 06:26 pm: |
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Here are some definitions of terms used in the previous posting:
Spondee - A metrical foot consisting of two long or stressed syllables.
Trochee - A metrical foot consisting of a stressed syllable followed by an unstressed syllable, as in season, or of a long syllable followed by a short syllable.
Pyrrhic - A metrical foot having two short or unaccented syllables.
Iamb is defined in the above posting.
I hope this helps decipher the above explanations and doesn’t make your heads spin to quickly!
Michael
Aka Bronze Dragon
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Sharon Elaine English (Sharoneenglish)
Starlite Member
Username: Sharoneenglish
| | Posted on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 06:45 pm: |
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Okay, so basically what you are saying here is that in strict iambic pentameter there is room for 'error'? As you know I fight with these things all the time, LOL, but I put up a good one.
Not saying that we can just throw words down and call it iambic but if it isn't 'perfect' we needn't feel defeated. |
Bronze Dragon (Michaelwalker)
Starlite Moderator
Username: Michaelwalker
| | Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 09:17 am: |
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I wouldn't say "error," but rather "substitutions." As stated, the substitutions are perfectly fine and accepted, as long as a line contains more iambs than substitutions. A line containing the above substitutions is still considered to be written in iambic pentameter.
Michael |
Sharon Elaine English (Sharoneenglish)
Starlite Member
Username: Sharoneenglish
| | Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 09:33 am: |
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Okies, thanks, Michael, I just couldn't think of a better word than error, lol |
Jenna T Jones (Tyler_87)
Starlite Member
Username: Tyler_87
| | Posted on Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 09:34 am: |
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I know this may sound strange, and I don't even know if you check this place much anymore, but I was wondering if I could get some help with iambic pentameters because I can never work out or name what the feet are, because I can't work out how you know which syllables are stressed. Any help would be much appreciated =)
Ty |
Bronze Dragon (Michaelwalker)
Starlite Moderator
Username: Michaelwalker
| | Posted on Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 09:42 am: |
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Ty, please send me an email at mwbronzedragon@netscape.net and I'll help in any way I can.
Michael |
William F. Mansell (Onetinsoldier)
Starlite Member
Username: Onetinsoldier
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 06:38 pm: |
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Iambically Challenged
Ok I finally decided to post here and flat out admit that I have a problem with these pesky iamb things. Now...before we get all carried away, I know the basic stuff, all the da DUH and whatnot and I can see a few lines that I would actually say were iambic. Here is the problem, if anyone writes a line and drops it in here and says OK here is Iambic structure and I applied that to another poem of supposed iambics using the words given as example then maybe 1 time out of 5 I would be seeing iambic structure. For someone that is like me and just dont 'hear' them or know right off; just how in the world can we tell? I am sure there is some secret to it that I haven't yet found and I am asking for that. How do you know when a sound is accented or stressed or what ever? I have seen the exact same words used in so many different ways that I am totally confused. I would think that if a word or a sound is accented or stressed once then it would be always? Is that not right? For me that would be easiest to distinguish since I could build a compilation in my brain and know when I read a certain word that it was accented just so. Maybe too much? I am just looking for a simple answer, perhaps the question is too difficult? So....anyone up to teaching an old dog new tricks?
your friend and aspiring poet
from the Heart of Texas
William Mansell
OneTinSoldier
tired of being in the corner
wearing the big pointy hat |
Sandra Lee Alford (Fairmaiden)
Starlite Member
Username: Fairmaiden
| | Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 12:31 pm: |
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ok Sir William here goes...hehehehe
when you are writing a line out in iambic meter, use your fingers, I know that sounds silly, but try it. thinking back on that silly da Dum, da Dum stuff...thump the words out...the second syllable is pronounced
example
i AM from MARS and LOVE to EAT green CHEESE
but IF i'm NOT as CAREful AS can BE
i'll WIND up IN a JUMbled MESS of FLEAS
so LISten CLOSE and HEAR my SOLemn PLEA
OK, STOP LAUGHING!! hehehehehe I know the verse is silly, but that is iambic, hope it helps!!
hugs and smiles, Sandi
~May your personal journey through life be filled with love, happiness and many cherished memories~
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William F. Mansell (Onetinsoldier)
Starlite Member
Username: Onetinsoldier
| | Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 01:38 pm: |
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AWWW Sandi you are so sweet! I appreciate the lesson but... LOL!! My point is this. If I look at what you have here and put this down on paper I could say that ---Am--Mars--Love--Eat--Cheese--etc. are stressed or accented syllable words. Using that template I then could insert those words in along with the ones you used as unstressed or un-accented and rearrange to form my own version of an iambic line. OOPS wait a minute...LOL! You can already see that aint working can't you?
The way I see it ( and having read so many supposed iambic lines ) a particular word can be iambic one time and not another time. Seems it depends on exactly where in a line it appears.
Or maybe I just can't read? LOL!
Just a FYI. You started your lines with -I- now not real sure 'bout anyone else but for me that is a pretty heavy stressed or accented word? Anyways I am still trying to get a handle on this iambic thing and maybe someday it will be possible for me to comprehend. Thanks for the response.
PS-- I recall way back in the day....as a mere lad in grade school that when I wanted to find a new word I would write it down in my notepad and dash off to the school library. Poor Mrs. Dawson surely hated me for that bless her soul 'cuz I would have to drag out the big ol dictionary. I cannot recall which one it was but do remember it was a HUGE book (guess they didn't want me carrying it off) but the good thing was that it did show the syllable accents. Does anyone know what I am referring to? Or know which one of the current dictionaries still do that? That would be a great help to many of us I am sure.
your friend and aspiring poet
from the Heart of Texas
William Mansell
OneTinSoldier |
Bronze Dragon (Michaelwalker)
Starlite Moderator
Username: Michaelwalker
| | Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 08:33 pm: |
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Sorry to have not posted here sooner, William, but I hope I can help a little. What Sandi said is good advice, but as you point out, the diction and stress, etc., can vary depending on many factors, including dialect. That's why, when using iambic meter with one-syllable words, it's hard to know how EVERYONE would interpret the stress. In those cases, I say don't stress out about it (pun DEFINITELY intended). You have to go with what it sounds like when you read it aloud. As far as dictionaries give the stress placement, most still do, including one great online dictionary, www.dictionary.com . I use that one all the time. Such as their definition of com·mu·ni·ca·tion, which uses the ' character to indicate stress, a light ' for a small stress and a bolded ' for the primary stress. I hope that helps some.
I think the purpose of life is to be useful, to be responsible, to be honorable, to be compassionate. It is, after all, to matter: to count, to stand for something, to have made some difference that you lived at all.
- Leo C. Rosten
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Sandra Lee Alford (Fairmaiden)
Starlite Member
Username: Fairmaiden
| | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 10:54 am: |
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*giggle* oh well, I tried
reading it outloud definately helps me, and thanks Michael for the dictionary link, much appreciated!
~May your personal journey through life be filled with love, happiness and many cherished memories~
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William F. Mansell (Onetinsoldier)
Starlite Member
Username: Onetinsoldier
| | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 11:22 am: |
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Thanks y'all! I may actually learn something some day from asking questions. I do appreciate the response and will take all ideas into consideration. Just don't expect to see anything of an iambic nature from me real soon OK? LOL! Or if you do....PLEASE PLEASE tell me so 'cuz I will have done it on accident.
your friend and aspiring poet
from the Heart of Texas
William Mansell
OneTinSoldier |
Sue (Smartchick)
Starlite Member
Username: Smartchick
| | Posted on Sunday, November 06, 2005 - 06:05 pm: |
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This is something I have wanted to learn how to do for so long, but I just can't seem to get it.
Don't let my name decieve you. LOL! |
Bronze Dragon (Michaelwalker)
Starlite Moderator
Username: Michaelwalker
| | Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 05:32 am: |
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Sue, I hope this sections helps then. If you'd like, email me with any questions you have and I'd be glad to help, or simply post your questions here!
Michael
If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague.
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Tamara Rene Marotto (Stolenkisses)
Starlite Member
Username: Stolenkisses
| | Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 03:46 pm: |
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Ok, I have to admit I was really rather curious about this whole meter thing when it came to reading and writting poetry. People have made comments ( On other sites) that the "meter" of my poetry was a little off. I think that I may understand it more. I can see where meter may be important. But, not all poetry has to have a meter in it to be considered "good" does it? |
Bronze Dragon (Michaelwalker)
Starlite Moderator
Username: Michaelwalker
| | Posted on Monday, January 16, 2006 - 06:26 am: |
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I'm glad you found your way to this forum, Tamara! Welcome! To answer your question, I think all poetry has meter, it is just whether or not the meter is set and consistent throughout the poem. And more on point, no, poetry does not have to have a consistent meter to be considered good, because what is good is subject to interpretation and greatly the result of how the words of a poem strike home with the reader, no matter the meter.
Michael
If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague.
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Karen_davies
Starlite Member
Username: Karen_davies
| | Posted on Sunday, June 04, 2006 - 01:17 pm: |
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Micheal,
Are these spondees at the end of each line??
Little baby, precious, sweet,
rosy, soft from head to feet.
2.
april skipped into my garden,
scent the maple buds out playing.
I have a vague idea about the feminine and masculine endings. Is playing feminine? Is it okay to mix the two or is it better to make a pattern throughout the poem?
Thanks
Karen
(Message edited by karen davies on June 04, 2006)
(Message edited by karen davies on June 04, 2006) |
Michaelwalker
Starlite Moderator
Username: Michaelwalker
| | Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 08:00 am: |
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Karen - excellent questions!
A "spondee" is a metrical foot with two stressed syllables, and in iambic meter is usually preceded by a phyrric foot, so the phrase:
...in the high tide
would be a phyrric foot followed by a spondee. These technigue is called a "double iamb." I think in your example you may be confusing a spondee with a hypermetrical unstressed syllable. With this, you would have an essentially iambic line that ends with an extra syllable, ustressed. And both "garden" and "playing" are stressed - unstressed syllable words.
I hope this helps and if not, please let me know!
Michael
If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague. ***
Visit my website - Poet Idiot
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Karen_davies
Starlite Member
Username: Karen_davies
| | Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 10:32 am: |
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little baby precious, sweet
then is this (3 feet-trochee) with one extra unstressed syllable?
As far as the feminine endings...
does that mean a wording ending with an unstressed syllable is feminine and masculine words end with a stressed syllable? |
Michaelwalker
Starlite Moderator
Username: Michaelwalker
| | Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 10:45 am: |
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As to feminine or masculine ending, you are correct.
As to that line, yes - you have three trochaic feet: however, the ending "sweet" to me reads as stressed, or masculine, not unstressed. I would read that line as being a headless iamb, and the remainder being iambic. So it would be iambic tetrameter, as follows...
LIT / tle BAB / y PRE / cious SWEET
Or...
headless iamb / iamb / iamb / iamb
As I said, depends on how the substitution is used in the line, but I read it more as iambic tetrameter.
Michael
If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague. ***
Visit my website - Poet Idiot
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Karen_davies
Starlite Member
Username: Karen_davies
| | Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 10:55 am: |
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I'm confused---I thought trochee was
STRESS unstress:
LIT le/BAB y/ PRE cious/ SWEET
OH! I see... you said it dedends on how the substitution is read. So someone else could read it and say it wasn't iambic?
while iambic was--
unstress STRESS
i WORKED/ all DAY/ to BUY/ some FOOD
(Message edited by karen_davies on June 05, 2006) |
Michaelwalker
Starlite Moderator
Username: Michaelwalker
| | Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 11:11 am: |
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It could easily be read that way, Karen - you are correct in that assumption. But depending on where you put it in a poem, it could also be read as a headless iamb. In other words, if that line were to appear in a poem that was primarily iambic tetrameter, it would be read as a headless iamb. If the meter were predominantly trochaic, it would be read as you have illustrated it. It depends largely on context. The "headless iamb" is what is above, as this...
4. the acephalous or "headless" iamb--An iamb with the first unstressed syllable omitted.
"Running down the corridors of night"
This scans as:
/ ^ RUN/ ning DOWN/ the COR/ ri DORS/ of NIGHT/
/ headless iamb/ iamb/ iamb/ iamb/ iamb/
As I said, the ending masculine is what lead me to the impression of the headless iamb. Trochaic meter would typically end a line on a feminine stress.
If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague. ***
Visit my website - Poet Idiot
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Karen_davies
Starlite Member
Username: Karen_davies
| | Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 11:20 am: |
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I'm so glad I found you... It helps so much to be able to ask questions and get a response that's quick. Thank you for being there!
Karen |
Michaelwalker
Starlite Moderator
Username: Michaelwalker
| | Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 11:32 am: |
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You're quite welcome, Karen! I usually am here during normal business hours, CST, when I'm not out of the office, so I do watch the boards rather closely when I can.
If you ever have any other questions, meter related or not, feel free to post them in FOS or to email me any time at fos.guy@gmail.com
If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague. ***
Visit my website - Poet Idiot
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Karen_davies
Starlite Member
Username: Karen_davies
| | Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 08:20 pm: |
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Okay Micheal,
You can help me quite a bit! I regularly submit my poems (until my skin starts getting too thin) to be critiqued. Many times the person critiquing will say so much that I understand most of it, but not everything.
... Can you translate into REAL English for me??
1.)epigrammatic poem.
2.)I like what you've done with the metrical substitution. The meter is completely unsubstituted
(what???)
3.)doesn’t seem to strain under the weight of the rhyme.
4.) playing a little too hard toward the rhyme; I’d like to see something stronger there.
5.) occasional syllabic lapses
(Message edited by karen_davies on June 05, 2006) |
Michaelwalker
Starlite Moderator
Username: Michaelwalker
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 06, 2006 - 07:42 am: |
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LOL - I can try...
1.) This simply means it was a short, witty poem, usually expressing a single idea - I would take it as a compliment!
2.) Metrical substitution would be when, as we discussed before, you substitute a different meter in a poem of another type of meter. For example, the "headless iamb" I mentioned before would be a metrical substitution in an otherwise iambic line. However, the statement is contradictory, as it says they like the metrical substitution, but then say it is "unsubstituted," meaning it would be a truly iambic or trochaic line, etc.
3.) Sometimes poets tend to write a somewhat awkward line simply to fit a rhyme - I think he/she was saying that yours was well-written, and seemed to fit - not strain - with the rhyme.
4.) I take this as the opposite of 3.) - meaning that the line was somehow awkward, trying to fit the rhyme too hard and didn't flow as well.
5.) I am assuming that this was in a poetry form requiring a certain syllable count? If so, it simply means you did not have the syllable count correct.
I hope that helps, Karen!
Michael
If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague. ***
Visit my website - Poet Idiot
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Karen_davies
Starlite Member
Username: Karen_davies
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 06, 2006 - 11:02 am: |
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Thanks,
So I'm not crazy, I thought line 2 didn't make sense! Do you have any examples of any poems written in tetrameter with alternating trochaic and iambic lines? I was going to try it, but it would be nice to see an example first.
Thanks for your help, once again!
Karen
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Michaelwalker
Starlite Moderator
Username: Michaelwalker
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 06, 2006 - 11:19 am: |
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Karen,
A poem I wrote recently, Split contains several substitutions.
The poem is written in iambic tetrameter, but I did use substitutions. For example, in the stanza:
A note - a song - a spoken word
Into the void - it's left unheard
It never had the proper voice
That it deserved, that it deserved
a NOTE / a SONG / a SPOK / en WORD - all iambic line
IN to / the VOID / it's LEFT / un HEARD - the first metrical foot is trochaic, the rest iambic
it NEV / er HAD / the PROP / er VOICE - all iambic again
THAT it / de SERVED / THAT it / de SERVED - alternates trochaic and iambic, respectively.
Another substitution used in this poem is in the line,
I long to hold you near, to savor..
i LONG / to HOLD / you NEAR / to SAV / or
In this line, it is all iambic tetrameter, but the ending "or" is what is called a hypermetrical unstressed syllable, and it perfectly acceptible.
I hope this helps, and let me know if you have any other questions at all.
Michael
aka Bronze Dragon
If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague. ***
Visit my website - Poet Idiot
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Karen_davies
Starlite Member
Username: Karen_davies
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 06, 2006 - 01:14 pm: |
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That's nice! well, I'm going to give it a shot with an ABBA rhyme in tetrameter, the A for iambic, B for trochaic. Then I'll show it to you.
Karen |
Karen_davies
Starlite Member
Username: Karen_davies
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 06, 2006 - 11:20 pm: |
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Okay, it's not what really I set out to do...
but I like it.
care to scan this for me?
Young flowers spring up out of bed!
June’s breeze has removed all trace
Of the winter’s cloudy face...
Who pinched your cheeks a rosy red?
Now wipe the sleep out of your eyes!
Lift up your petal bonnet,
feel all the sunshine on it?
Come blossom under spring's clear skies!
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Michaelwalker
Starlite Moderator
Username: Michaelwalker
| | Posted on Friday, June 09, 2006 - 02:30 pm: |
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Sorry it's been so long, Karen. But I've attempted to break it out for you:
young FLOW / ers SPRING / up OUT / of BED
iamb / iamb / iamb / iamb
JUNE'S / BREEZE has / re MOVED / all TRACE
headless iamb / trochee / iamb / iamb
of the WINT / er's CLOUD / y FACE
anapest / iamb / iamb
who PINCHED / your CHEEKS / a ROS / y RED
iamb / iamb / iamb / iamb
now WIPE / the SLEEP / OUT of / your EYES
iamb / iamb / trochee/ iamb
LIFT up / your PET / al BON / net
trochee / iamb / iamb / hypermetrical
FEEL / all the / SUN SHINE / On it
headless iamb / pyrrhic / spondee (double iamb)/ iamb
come BLOS / som UN / der SPRING'S / CLEAR SKIES
iamb / iamb / iamb / spondee
I am not sure in this case which is intended to be the dominant meter, as the substitutions seem to crowd out the true meter, and it's not revealed. Of course, meter is sort of funny, as people can read it differing ways.
I hope this helped, and feel free to ask any questions.
Michael
aka Bronze Dragon
If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague. ***
Visit my website - Poet Idiot and join in my Monotetra challenge.
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Karen_davies
Starlite Member
Username: Karen_davies
| | Posted on Friday, June 09, 2006 - 08:41 pm: |
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Well now, that looks a right mess doesn't it? lol
So would you suggest a redo of that poem (be honest) into all iambic, because it really didn't scan the way I thought it would. Or does it "read " naturally enough?...don't be vague!!
How come many classic poems I read are all over the place mixing meters, yet still read natural, and I guess are considered okay. Is it okay?
Also, I've noticed the LINE LENGTH is not consistant (Tennyson's Break, Break, Break)
yet the meter is. What about that? If you're not doing a sonnet or ballad, etc., is it okay to just bust out and lengthen a line if you have more to say?
Thanks for your help, and time-
Karen |
Michaelwalker
Starlite Moderator
Username: Michaelwalker
| | Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 07:49 am: |
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Part of the problem with meter, Karen, is that some words - especially monosyllabic words - can be read/stressed differently by some than by others, making it often hard to read an exact meter. One way to ensure the meter is read correctly, I suppose, is using multi-syllable words and going by the stress indicators according to a pronunciation key in a dictionary, but that is often bulky and hard to do.
I would not re-write the poem you have above. Many (I would dare say most) current poets do not give a wit about meter, but are concerned more with the natural flow of a line. The fact that line length is not consistent, but meter is, is not surprising. Consider a poem in which one line is iambic and has 8 syllables, and another line is anapestic and has 12 syllables - both would still be tetrameter, but the line length would be greatly imbalanced. In poetry, anything is okay - depending on what you are trying to accomplish. If you feel lengthening a line better emphasizes it or its idea, then do it. If you want to create a poem entirely in pure iambic pentameter, for example, each line would have ten syllables and the stresses would all be on the second syllable of each "foot" of meter.
I am afraid there is no truly right answer to this.
If anyone else has thoughts or ideas on this, please join in on the discussion.
Michael
If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague. ***
Visit my website - Poet Idiot and join in my Monotetra challenge.
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Rainspirit
Starlite Member
Username: Rainspirit
| | Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 09:58 am: |
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I think this fits...it is from a site I often refer
to: tinablue.homestead.com ( she teaches courses on poetry)
"The metrical pattern of a poem is determined by the poem's predominant meter. Metered poems will usually be quite regular, but in order to provide special emphasis in some places or to avoid monotony, poets often use substitutions in some of a poem's lines. Spondees and pyrrhics often occur as substitutions. When, for example, the accent would fall on a word like "in" or "a," which are not normally accented in speech, a pyrrhic will leave the word appropriately unaccented. Technically, the word probably gets a slight degree of stress because of its position in the line. It is possible to mark secondary and tertiary (third-level) stress, but seldom is such a degree of analysis needed. I always treat a syllable with tertiary stress as if it were unstressed. Occasionally I treat secondary stress the same way, if the line clearly seems to warrant it, but I am more likely to treat a secondary stress as if it were a primary stress.
Some substitutions, such as a trochee for the first foot in an iambic line, are so common that they are considered conventional--so that, for example, a critic might refer to the "initial trochaic substitution" as conventional rather than meaningful in an iambic poem. Such a substitution is meaningful only if it is used to add emphasis to a certain word or syllable by departing from the expected meter. For example, in John Donne's Holy Sonnet 14, the opening line, "Batter my heart three-personed God, for You," uses an initial trochee to reinforce the onomatopoeic* effect of the word "batter":
Batter my heart three-personed God, for You
As yet but knock, breathe, shine and seek to mend.
Notice that the second line includes a spondaic substitution in the third foot, adding strong emphasis to the series of actions being described. In this case, "Breathe" probably has a fairly strong secondary stress rather than a true primary stress, but since emphasis is clearly intended, I treat it as a primary stress for ease of discussion.
Even if a poem's meter is almost perfectly regular, that does not mean that there are no variations in its rhythm. In my poetry classes I use Robert Frost's "Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening" to illustrate how remarkably varied the rhythm can be even when all of the poem's lines follow a regular meter. The poem is written in iambic tetrameter, with a couple of pyrrhic substitutions, as in the lines, "His house is in the village, though" (2) and "But I have promises to keep" (14). We would not normally stress "in" or the final syllable ("es") of "promises," so the pyrrhic substitution is obviously necessary. But the pyrrhic in "promises" also serves to shake up that line, as if the persona, who has been slipping into a trancelike state, literally shakes himself awake with the realization that he can't just sit there and stare at the snow:
The woods are lovely, dark, and deep,
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.
Except for those two pyrrhics, however, there are no variations in this poem's meter. Nevertheless, the fact remains that some words take longer to pronounce than others because of the arrangement of phonemes (individual units of sound) or the length of vowels and diphthongs, and some are said quickly or slowly because of their meaning. Thus in the third stanza of the poem the lines "He gives his harness bells a shake / To ask if there is some mistake" (9-10) have a very different rhythm from the two lines that follow them in the same stanza, "The only other sound's the sweep / Of easy wind and downy flake" (11-12), despite the fact that the metrical pattern remains the same. (Try reading those two pairs of lines out loud and you will see exactly what I mean about how different their rhythmic patterns are.)
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Michaelwalker
Starlite Moderator
Username: Michaelwalker
| | Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 10:07 am: |
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That is excellent, Renee! Thank you so much for posting and sharing it with us all! I will have to check out the website you refered to - sounds like a wealth of knowledge therein. 
Michael
If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague. ***
Visit my website - Poet Idiot and join in my Monotetra challenge.
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Rainspirit
Starlite Member
Username: Rainspirit
| | Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 10:11 am: |
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You will find a lot...but a lot of it is repetitive.....but please yourself...as I know you will |
Michaelwalker
Starlite Moderator
Username: Michaelwalker
| | Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 10:52 am: |
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Thank you, Renee - I have pleased myself. LOL!
Now this is more information from the website Renee pointed us to (www.tinablue.homestead.com), which I think is useful and pertinent to this conversation:
"Formal poetry is poetry that makes use of the traditional elements of poetic form-- i.e., rhyme and meter. Free verse (also called vers libre or open form poetry) is poetry that has neither an identifiable rhyme scheme nor a fixed or predominant meter, though it may have rhyme, and if it is any good it will make effective use of rhythm.
Although the term free verse is still widely used, many critics prefer to call such poetry open form poetry, to avoid fostering the misconception that this sort of poetry lacks shape or discipline. If a "poem" lacks shape and discipline, then it isn't really a poem--it's just words on paper.
Open form does not mean formless. Open form poetry establishes rhythm and relationships by means of patterning specific to the poem in question, and sometimes also by weaving allusion into the pattern of meaning.
Some techniques that can be used to create patterns of effect and meaning in open form poetry are the arrangement of words on the printed page, the deliberate manipulation of white space, pauses, line lengths and breaks, word clusters, and the repetition of sounds, rhythmic phrases, and images.
In many ways it is much easier to write formal verse than to write free verse, simply because the meter and rhyme scheme impose a sort of discipline that the poet must somehow discover on his own within the raw material of an open form poem. Violations of the rules of rhyme or meter are easy to avoid and correct, as are weak links caused by an attempt to follow those rules without reference to the poems own internal logic.
But in open form poetry, the poet is flying by the seat of his pants. He has only his own sense of what works and what doesn't to keep him headed toward the meaning and effect he wants his poem to produce. And if what he attempts falls flat, the reader does not even have the pleasure of cleverly handled rhyme and meter to fall back on.
Much of today's poetry is written in open form, and much of that open form poetry is breathtaking.
But much of it is also flat-out awful.
Too many lazy "poets" think that writing a free verse poem is easy. They write "poems" by jotting down a few loose images, feelings, ideas, or phrases and arranging them on the page in ways that seem (to themselves at least) clever and artistic.
Such "poetry" is of interest only to your therapist. Even your friends and family don't really want to read it, though most of them will if you insist, and of course they'll pretend to find it exquisite, delightful, and deep.
They'll also start ducking around corners when they see you approaching with yet another poem for them to read.
Good open form poetry is every bit as powerful as good formal poetry, and much of the best poetry written over the past century or so has been written in open form."
- www.tinablue.homestead.com
"Because I teach a course called "Introduction to Poetry" (a course in understanding poetry, not a course in writing it), many people--students and others--ask me to read and comment on their poems. One problem I often find even in otherwise good poems is that the writer, in his attempt to hold together all the complexities of idea, language, sound, and aesthetic structure, sometimes lets something lapse.
"For example, if a poet is attempting to manipulate a rigorous fixed form--like a sonnet or a sestina--he may, in something like desperation, settle finally on a word or phrase that just doesn't work, but that fits the metrical pattern and the rhyme scheme. Even in less rigid forms--say a poem consisting of however many quatrains rhyming abab cdcd efef, and so on--a less skilled poet might permit himself an inappropriately archaic inversion, or some other jarring note, in order to get a line to scan and rhyme.
"I was offered a poem to read this summer that had in it the clause "He me did show." The line it was in scanned perfectly, and rhymed, too. But there was nothing in the poem's subject or context, or in any other of its elements, that allowed for such phrasing. Such inversion calls attention to itself in a very big way, so if it is doing something important and appropriate for the poem, that's fine. But I must admit that I have never seen such a line that was anything other than a clunker. I can imagine how one might be effectively used, but it would be a difficult feat for even a very skilled poet to write such a line without its being a blemish on his poem. "
- www.tinablue.homestead.com
Some terms of interest:
TERMS:
rhythm meter scan scansion accent slack syllable free verse (vers libre) formal verse prosody
"Poetry comes naturally to the human mind. The basic elements of poetry intrigue and delight almost anyone, regardless of age or level of education, and regardless of whether the listener even understands what is being said in the poem. Many people delight in the sounds of poetry in languages they do not comprehend, and even infants will quiet when you begin to read or recite poetry to them, because they really enjoy the way it sounds. It is no accident that so much children's literature is written in verse, or that everyone, young or old, loves Dr. Seuss.
Poetry is about sound effects at least as much as (probably more than) it is about meaning. One of the ways that sound effects are created in poetry is through rhythm. The rhythmic patterns in poetry are more intense and conspicuous than are the rhythms of prose, although truly effective prose writers are very much aware of the rhythmic effects their sentences produce. In fact, you have probably heard praise of a prose writer couched in terms of poetry--as when an admiring critic says that this or that writer's style is so exquisite that it is more like poetry than like mere prose. (And when we want to criticize someone's work as being pedestrian and dull, we might call it "prosaic.")
The word rhythm refers to the natural rise and fall of the voice when something is being spoken or read aloud. All poems have rhythm, though some do a better job than others of using rhythm for poetic effect.
The word meter which comes from the Greek word for "measure," is used to describe a regular rhythmic pattern that operates throughout a given poem. In English poetry that regular pattern is usually defined in terms of the recurrence of stressed and unstressed syllables at regular intervals.
To scan a poem has a very specific technical meaning. It does not mean to glance over a poem. We use the word scansion for the act of determining the meter of a poem by marking the stressed and unstressed syllables in its lines. Accents (stressed syllables ) are marked by a slant line above the syllable ( /). Slack syllables
(unstressed syllables ) are marked in one of two ways--either with an x above the syllable, or with a mark that looks like a somewhat flattened u (which I can't produce here, so I'll stick with x for slack syllables).
Not all poems are metrical. Free verse ( vers libre ) is poetry that does not have an identifiable rhyme scheme or metrical pattern. That does not mean that there is no rhythm in free verse, or even that the rhythm is not important and carefully patterned. In a good free verse poem rhythm will be precisely manipulated for effect. But if you were to mark the stressed and unstressed syllables in a free verse poem, you would not be able to ascertain a regular pattern. Similarly, a free verse poem might make heavy use of rhymed or partially rhymed words (as well as alliteration, which is akin to rhyme), but you would not be able to mark a rhyme scheme, and the rhymed words might not even occur at the ends of lines. It is the regularity of the pattern of end-rhymes (rhymes that occur at the ends of lines) that allows us to label a rhyme scheme, and the regularity of the pattern of stressed and unstressed syllables that allows us to identify a metrical pattern in a poem.
Free verse must not be confused with blank verse . Although blank verse is not rhymed, it has a very specific metrical pattern--iambic pentameter. * In fact, the definition of blank verse is that it is unrhymed iambic pentameter.
Formal verse is poetry that makes use of regular metrical patterns and rhyme schemes. The word "formal" refers to the fact that the rules of relevant forms are strictly followed. For example, a poem written in iambic pentametrical quatrains rhyming abab cdcd efef ghgh * * will maintain that pattern throughout, or if the pattern changes, the change will be regular, not whimsical or erratic. The word "formal" applied to poetry has nothing to do with the level of seriousness, sophistication or erudition manifested in the poem, but refers only to the poet's strict adherence to the rules of form that he has selected for that particular poem.
Prosody does not refer to prose, but rather to the analysis of the technical elements of poetry. This article and subsequent articles in this series are intended to help readers and writers of poetry understand the basics of prosody. Many of you already have such knowledge. In fact, many of you probably teach the subject. But it is often the case that people who love poetry have nevertheless had very little instruction in its technical aspects. My purpose in these articles is to strip such instruction down to make it as accessible as possible for the nonspecialists among you, whether you want to write better poetry or just to understand better the poetry you love to read."
- www.tinablue.homestead.com
One final little tool that's useful, from the same website:
good hints!
monometer one foot
he SITS
dimeter two feet
he SITS on CHAIRS
trimeter three feet
he SITS on CHAIRS in BARS
tetrameter four feet
he SITS on CHAIRS in BARS and THINKS
pentameter five feet
he SITS on CHAIRS in BARS and THINKS of CARS
hexameter six feet
he SITS on CHAIRS in BARS and THINKS of CARS that BREAK
I hope this helps foster our understanding of the thing we all seem to enjoy - poetry!
Michael
aka Bronze Dragon
If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague. ***
Visit my website - Poet Idiot and join in my Monotetra challenge.
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Rainspirit
Starlite Member
Username: Rainspirit
| | Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 11:02 am: |
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Pleased as Punch...are we.....
Judy |
Kajuncutie
Starlite Member
Username: Kajuncutie
| | Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 11:04 am: |
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LOL.. Ya'll make me smile..))
I'm off to read some too and see if I can get pleasd too..)))
"I am but an apprentice,
an amateur wordsmith....I do not seek more than this
for I claim not the title of poet
as I do not fit the mold." (from 'The Apprentice' by Myrna D.)
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Rainspirit
Starlite Member
Username: Rainspirit
| | Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 11:15 am: |
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My dear one, you be pleasin' me just by seeing your post here... |
Karen_davies
Starlite Member
Username: Karen_davies
| | Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 01:16 pm: |
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Thanks Michael, and Judy--
I'll keep workin' on my meter!! If I have any more questions I'll let ya know.
Karen
(Message edited by karen_davies on June 12, 2006) |
Michaelwalker
Starlite Moderator
Username: Michaelwalker
| | Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 01:25 pm: |
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Any time, Karen - it's why we're here!
If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague. ***
Visit my website - Poet Idiot and join in my Monotetra challenge.
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Michaelwalker
Starlite Moderator
Username: Michaelwalker
| | Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 01:25 pm: |
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LOL - Who is Judy???
If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague. ***
Visit my website - Poet Idiot and join in my Monotetra challenge.
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Rainspirit
Starlite Member
Username: Rainspirit
| | Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 01:44 pm: |
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Punch and Judy is a popular British glove-puppet show for children (although the earliest shows used marionettes), featuring Mr. Punch and his wife Judy. The performance consists of a sequence of short scenes, each depicting an interaction between two characters, most typically the anarchic Mr. Punch and one other character. The show is traditionally performed by a single puppeteer, known as a Professor, who of course can only perform two characters at a time (one puppet on each hand |
Rainspirit
Starlite Member
Username: Rainspirit
| | Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 01:45 pm: |
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Oh not that you are anarchic.....just scaly |
Michaelwalker
Starlite Moderator
Username: Michaelwalker
| | Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 01:55 pm: |
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...or is it just that you know me better than you let on? LOL!
Michael
If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague. ***
Visit my website - Poet Idiot and join in my Monotetra challenge.
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Rainspirit
Starlite Member
Username: Rainspirit
| | Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 02:01 pm: |
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shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh do you want to start an unfounded rumour...tsk tsk heaven forbid .... |
Kajuncutie
Starlite Member
Username: Kajuncutie
| | Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 02:07 pm: |
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LMAO.. ya'll are killing me!!! But I promise.. your secrets are safe with me...hehehe
Hey now.. you have to give me time to duck!! LOL LOL
"I am but an apprentice,
an amateur wordsmith....I do not seek more than this
for I claim not the title of poet
as I do not fit the mold." (from 'The Apprentice' by Myrna D.)
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Michaelwalker
Starlite Moderator
Username: Michaelwalker
| | Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 02:12 pm: |
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I'll try to behave... no, really... I will.
If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague. ***
Visit my website - Poet Idiot and join in my Monotetra challenge.
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Karen_davies
Starlite Member
Username: Karen_davies
| | Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 02:14 pm: |
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Yeah? I thought I saw a Judy around here...LOL
Okay Renee, then! |
Rainspirit
Starlite Member
Username: Rainspirit
| | Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 02:21 pm: |
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No secrets here.....all the meter is in order, and this is all fun done in perfect prose between friends....and you there Swampy.....careful or I will tell a story or two... Huggers Miss Myrn |
Kajuncutie
Starlite Member
Username: Kajuncutie
| | Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 02:27 pm: |
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Make 'em good, honey... my life needs a bit of spice in it!! LOL
huggers back at ya honey...and Michael you behave yourself!
"I am but an apprentice,
an amateur wordsmith....I do not seek more than this
for I claim not the title of poet
as I do not fit the mold." (from 'The Apprentice' by Myrna D.)
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Rainspirit
Starlite Member
Username: Rainspirit
| | Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 02:29 pm: |
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Now you have given me purpose Miss Myrn... ...I think the Swampy Trio has to come out and play in the free verse or metered pond...how about it? |
Kajuncutie
Starlite Member
Username: Kajuncutie
| | Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 02:38 pm: |
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Woohoo!!! Oh scaly one.. where are you???
Hmm.. if there such a thing as Dragon bait?..lol
"I am but an apprentice,
an amateur wordsmith....I do not seek more than this
for I claim not the title of poet
as I do not fit the mold." (from 'The Apprentice' by Myrna D.)
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Michaelwalker
Starlite Moderator
Username: Michaelwalker
| | Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 02:41 pm: |
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I'm gay... er, I mean, uh... "game." Not as in hunting game, that is - calm down, ye knights, but game as in all for it. Yeah, that's the ticket... LOL!
Bronzie
aka Mr. Punch
If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague. ***
Visit my website - Poet Idiot and join in my Monotetra challenge.
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Rainspirit
Starlite Member
Username: Rainspirit
| | Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 02:50 pm: |
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I think you are fair game for punishment....agreeing to write with the likes of me the resident scribbler...who knows not one thing about all of this, but likes to keep on trucking....whatever that means...your guess |
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