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Michael .P
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 07:00 am: | 
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I also try and understand Jims own opinions, ideas and beliefs i have an awful lot to learn from listening to people like Jim. Truth is not only found in one place even though there is only one truth it can be seen even in small particles in other religions and cultures a constant seeking of truth. I thrive on this notion that everyone who seeks truth in life is off to an awesome start and i share something in common with people from all walks of life. There was a document written on such truth found in multiple places by the vatican. I really enjoyed the read..i apologise for not remembering its title..perhaps someone who knows can share it here with us. I recommend anyone read it, as it is a very open minded article inspiring us to look for genuine truth in all things. As for throwing arrows i shoot jim with nerf missiles everynow and then all in good fun ;P I do apreciate your concern..and you've even raised questions in myself about who created evil. Interesting take you had on this that God created evil for a reason that it was for us to learn good from bad etc. When i think about it i ponder the idea of God been happy and content with all His creation. Lucifer once an important angel under God was evidently not evil but good. You often wonder why hell was created by God before lucifer fell. Surely if God knows our lives from start to end etc he must of known lucifer would fall just like judas fell and betrayed Him. Now i've just had a thought relate lucifers falling to our individual fallings in life. We were made good and God was satisfied and everyday i had the chance to do good but because i was no mindless robot i also had the potenial to do bad. Jealousy spawned evil as the story goes..not God. They say God is a jealous God. I'm thinking even jealousy is not intrinsically evil itself. Anything good has the potenial to be used for evil.
Michael william James
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Ken
Starlite Member
Username: Lovemepoetry
| | Posted on Saturday, May 06, 2006 - 08:30 pm: |
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I SEE NO ARROWS---STICKS OR STONES----NO BLOOD, BRUISES, OR MOANS-----SO IF A FIGHT IS GOING ON--IT IS NOT HERE-----I SEE LOGIC AND PATIENCE------UNDERSTANDING AND COMPASSION---I THINK I CAN LEARN BY SITTING ON THE SIDELINE-----AND READING THE CONVERSATION-------IF THE WHOLE WORLD TRIED TO UNDERSTAND LIKE THESE TWO TRY-----WARS WOULD CEASE AND THIS DISUSSION WOULD BE ALMOST UNECESSARY----BUT THAT NERVANA OR KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS STILL IN OUR FUTURE IF IT IS TO BE-----THE CURRENT SITUATION IS NOT EVEN CLOSE TO ACCEPTABLE---THEREFORE ANY SANE KIND UNDERSTANDING ATTEMPT TO UNDERSTAND MUST BE DEVELOPED AND DEFENDED======ON GUARD ALL DETRACTORS AND CRITICS AND WELCOME TO ALL WHO WILL READ AND TRY TO UNDERSTAND THE MIRACLE BROTHERHOOD YOU SEE HERE
Currently I am working on a 1500 acre tract in Tenn and need CALTALPA seeds to replant and create the needed bio-diversity also I need TURKS HEAD oak acorns ----any help will be appeciated by mother nature------currently the deer and wild turkey are in large numbers and the project is 80 % complete
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Michael .P
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Saturday, May 06, 2006 - 07:55 pm: |
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Go and open the door.
Maybe outside there's
a tree, or a wood,
a garden,
or a magic city.
Go and open the door.
Maybe a dog's rummaging.
Maybe you'll see a face,
or an eye,
or the picture
of a picture.
Go and open the door.
If there's a fog
it will clear.
Go and open the door.
Even if there's only
the darkness ticking,
even if there's only
the hollow wind,
even if
nothing
is there,
go and open the door.
At least
there'll be
a draught.
(Message edited by mik3y on May 06, 2006)
Michael william James
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Michael .P
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Saturday, May 06, 2006 - 07:52 pm: |
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The key word you used there was "IF" If such a man has ever reached this state on earth aside from Jesus Christ..i'd love to meet him heh
Until that time..we constantly fall and hence need to keep trying again and again..it is never overdone. There is a poem and unfortunately i cannot remember the author but i believe it is called "The Door" that will help give some light perhaps into why any failed attempt is never a good enough excuse to lose hope. [I will try and hunt down this poem in any case] ugh hours later lol i think i believe i've found the poem to be 'The Door,' Miroslav Holub
Michael william James
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Jim Armstrong
Starlite Member
Username: Njaeok
| | Posted on Saturday, May 06, 2006 - 07:45 pm: |
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I certainly agree Bobby-- exceot for one little thaing. Michael and I don't argue and fuss, we discuss. And I learn something about his point of view. I try to communicate my viewpoint as plain as possible so that he has the oppertunity to learn about my viewpoint. If I suspected I was in any way altering his faith, I would not discuss such things with him or any of the folks who enter into these discussions.
Night brings darkening, hope is adjourning.
Despair spreading its relentless spawn.
Yet prayer brings harking to hope reforming.
It's always the darkest just before dawn, Jimbo
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Bobbie Bruneau
Starlite Member
Username: Honesty811
| | Posted on Saturday, May 06, 2006 - 07:00 pm: |
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For Micheal and Jim
Nomatter in standards here you are both in the wrong for arguing in what the Lord says is wrong. To love your bother not throw arrows at each other.
In reality where both is concern talking of forgiveness has only hindred the truth in both.
To me this is foolish and wrong. Yes God does speak through each and everyone of us, God is in all as well. If you think about it, God even created the devil to test us and temp us. To challenge us.
Good and evil in the end all come together for the good.
You guys can argue about this topic till your blue in the face it does not make one more right then the other.
The topic being of forgiveness we learn in our own views and hearts. We are all different and unique
and God designed us to be different not to argue of the indifference to value of indifference.
God bless you both.
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Jim Armstrong
Starlite Member
Username: Njaeok
| | Posted on Saturday, May 06, 2006 - 06:47 pm: |
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Thanks Michael.
I suspected I wouldn't express it very well.
The notion that both vengence and frogiveness are the creator's comes fron certain non-christian philosophys. The rational root is that if one is far enough advanced in exercising loving thoughtfullness one dosen't experience anger and the desire for vengence. So there is no need for forgiveness.
One does however still respect the duty to protect ones self the community and does so with loving thoughtfullnes.
Night brings darkening, hope is adjourning.
Despair spreading its relentless spawn.
Yet prayer brings harking to hope reforming.
It's always the darkest just before dawn, Jimbo
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Michael .P
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Saturday, May 06, 2006 - 06:07 pm: |
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It was all well and good..beautiful in fact until you tried to string vengance and forgiveness together. Lets hand forgiveness over to the creator and its in his hands..we'll just sit and let him do all the work..without using us? He doesn't walk this earth or have his voice on loud speaker if you haven't noticed Jimbo. The reason why vengance is the lords is because we are in no place to make such an eternal judgement. Forgiveness however has been taught to us from the divine himself. And even before Jesus's time in the old testament it is gradually brought forward to the surface the undeniable necessity that we must forgive our brothers 7 x 7 etc etc
Now tell me where exactly you draw such a conclusion that forgiveness and vengance should both only be left to God.
That said the majority of what you wrote is exactly what i believe..hence you were firmly within all the teachings of the catholic church even.
Michael william James
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Jim Armstrong
Starlite Member
Username: Njaeok
| | Posted on Saturday, May 06, 2006 - 10:29 am: |
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Michael
"Vengence is mime sayeth the Lord" (holy Bible)
I will try to express this from your Christian point of view.
Forgive me if this non-Christian doesn't do it that well.
One has a choice in real life to cultivate good habits or let bad habits cultivate him/her. First one must have some sort of notion of what is good and what is bad.
How do you know?
It seems to me that the creator set the law of cause and effect so that an entity who has the basic intelligence to reasonable exercise free moral will, good and bad are pretty obvious.
I could present a litney of examples but upon examination they all come down to the opposing notions of love VS Hate and life is the standard by which to judge.
You can observe it all around you. Folks who cultivate loving thoughtfullness are happy and gratefull that they have been given the brief oppertunity to experience the awsome majisty of this mariculous reality in which we live for a little time.
Folks who let malicious hatefullnes lead them are never happy. They are so self involved that they cannot see the awsome beauty all around them. Sometimes they are so miserably corrupt and vicious that putting them out of their misery is an act of kindness.
Its not vengence. Vengence is the creator's. But if that is true then so must forgivness be the creator's. With loving thoughtfullness we have no need for either.
Night brings darkening, hope is adjourning.
Despair spreading its relentless spawn.
Yet prayer brings harking to hope reforming.
It's always the darkest just before dawn, Jimbo
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Michael .P
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Saturday, May 06, 2006 - 06:47 am: |
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I agree where is the room for forgiveness and love when we don't give a snake a chance to prove it has a heart too and it makes mistakes just like me and you..and it can feel sorry if it really wants to. Pull the snake off walk on get your damn anti-venom and leave that snake to its own conscience and potential contact of conscience informing information.
Michael william James
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Bobbie Bruneau
Starlite Member
Username: Honesty811
| | Posted on Saturday, May 06, 2006 - 06:24 am: |
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Micheal
IF we become agressive and defensive in our hearts then where is the room for love and forgivness.
When life throughs us the snake and it bites, biting back is not always the best solution.
Sometimes it takes a bigger person to forgive and walk away before it robs you of why we are here
and the purpose of life,
In life there are many things we have to overcome and forgiveness and death are the most hardest to comprehend. When we see the truth within we learn
and taking the steps helps with coping with it.
then comes with understanding, and when we begin to understand the healing process begins.
Life is not about the snake bite, it's about living and yes the Devil will do all in his power to rob you of it.
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Michael .P
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Saturday, May 06, 2006 - 01:23 am: |
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The snake I'm talking about is never written off Jimbo. It is hardly an open shut case.. you find me a man/woman on earth that is pure evil and incapable of ever turning their life around. It is very likely that the snake bit the heel because it was kicked at all its life and taught to fear and attack first before being attacked.
Michael william James
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Jim Armstrong
Starlite Member
Username: Njaeok
| | Posted on Saturday, May 06, 2006 - 12:57 am: |
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Is it not just likely that the snake bit the heel because that is what snakes do?
Is it not possible that folks who have chosen the way of the beast are going to start acting like beasts?
Look around Michael. See the folks who have chosen the way of the beast. Compare them to the folks who have chosen the way of loving thoughtfullness. Love them both but associate with the loving ones. And the hardest part is with loving thoughtfullness to avoid subsudizing the beast in any way.
I have no argument with the last part of your post. Applying the appropiate spiritual balm to smooth out the wounds and scars is a most useful thing. Personally, prayer works wonders for me.
Night brings darkening, hope is adjourning.
Despair spreading its relentless spawn.
Yet prayer brings harking to hope reforming.
It's always the darkest just before dawn, Jimbo
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Michael .P
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Friday, May 05, 2006 - 11:59 pm: |
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One must understand why the snake bites at their heel before they even consider striking back but this is not the same as pulling the snake away and attending to your wounds first Jim. Cath my dear it is the new light in which you see these marks that count.. The scars are no longer that over bearing, they are smoothed over and blended into the wood...what you can see is the potential the potential to be scared again but also the potential to be smoothed out and varnished/stained again.
Michael william James
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Ken
Starlite Member
Username: Lovemepoetry
| | Posted on Friday, May 05, 2006 - 08:15 am: |
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I am entring this discussion way late and may say things that were discusseed better before i jumped in=========if you find my interjection off target just ignore the babblings of this old man
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the hardest thing to do is recognize a problem-----you see yours that is the first step
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The second step is to decide to do something about it--------until you do this---no progress is possible
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deciding what to do about it is where the rubber hits the road
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but you can not solve all problems at the same time
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write a list of the things that you need to deal with
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put them in order of difficulty to solve---the easiest at the top
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then take number one and write down what would make it better
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go back to the time you had this problem and relive it
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try to figure out where you went wrong-----you already know where the other person went wrong------think how you should have reacted and if you had donethis how the other person might have reacted-------think this better picture of what happened and fell the better feelings this new picture gives you------then forgive yourself for adding to the problem----and forgive the other person even if they were more at fault----you carry a bigger hurt--scar than you need get rid of it-------think good thoughts about the other person----ask yourself if he were your child would you forgive him------think of that way----an the scar may fade-----------if this works for you----complete the list---at the end a great weight will dissappear and a new piece o9f furniture will be in your life to behold---tell me if this helps or hurts
Currently I am working on a 1500 acre tract in Tenn and need CALTALPA seeds to replant and create the needed bio-diversity also I need TURKS HEAD oak acorns ----any help will be appeciated by mother nature------currently the deer and wild turkey are in large numbers and the project is 80 % complete
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cath
Starlite Member
Username: Catscanfly
| | Posted on Friday, May 05, 2006 - 07:20 am: |
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There's an antique oak table in my house's kitchen which has been gashed and stained repeatedly for well over a century. probably about once a year, my parents treat it to a coat of bees wax and all the chips and stains are softened by the attention, fading slightly into the grain of the wood to become less noticeable and more blended into the furniture's character.
however, at the same time, i can still see where all the marks and scars are; they never fade completely from view.
For me, forgiveness is probably one of the hardest things in the world; i suppose i have a more resentful nature than lots of people. In the same way that conflict and action are exciting to me in general life, i seem to have a hard time spiritually ever being peaceful- including in the context of forgiving people.
"...Then don't go. Stay here with me. We'll start a jazz band."
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Bobbie Bruneau
Starlite Member
Username: Honesty811
| | Posted on Thursday, May 04, 2006 - 03:17 pm: |
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Jim that was very well said!
If someone comes to that point to forgive then, allow us to love, then to live life in hate and despise.
Forgiveness can be the hardest lesson we have to learn on this planet, those who find it in the heart truly found humbleness with God and themselves. |
Jim Armstrong
Starlite Member
Username: Njaeok
| | Posted on Thursday, May 04, 2006 - 10:21 am: |
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Should one forgive the storm that destroys the home? Or concern oneself with building a stronger house?
Should one forgive the poison snake that bites the heel? Or concern oneself with dispatching the snake and drawing out the poison?
One may be bright or dull
Fast or slow
To be wise
One must surely know
In each of us there is a beast
And a soul
Somewhere between
The beast and The soul
Is a place of confusion
We sometimes go
It’s an enigmatic place
To examine sin
We make our choices
The beast may win
If our choices go in the beastly way
Hunger for love
Becomes search for prey
Night brings darkening, hope is adjourning.
Despair spreading its relentless spawn.
Yet prayer brings harking to hope reforming.
It's always the darkest just before dawn, Jimbo
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Michael .P
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Thursday, May 04, 2006 - 06:42 am: |
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I have had to forgive many people i've trusted so well for some terrible things ... and well it may not be possible right away but in time God helps us learn to love again..we don't have to like everyone and be bestest of friends..but we are however called to love them and treat each other with the same respect equally.
Michael william James
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cath
Starlite Member
Username: Catscanfly
| | Posted on Thursday, May 04, 2006 - 06:10 am: |
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another interesting instance to add to the mix would be this other recent story-
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2006/03/07/do0702.xml
- the article is quite long but essentially it's about a priest who, after her daughter was killed in a terrorist bombing, chose to resign her post since she believed it would be hypocritical to preach love and forgiveness when she was not able to bestow these upon her daughter's killers.
it's interesting to compare the two situations; both women strike me as incredible examples of everything that's admirable in humanity. On opposite ends of the same spectrum, each has demonstrated exceptional moral fortitude.
I believe that god asks us to try to forgive those who tresspass against us; but if this is impossible for us then i think he only truly requires our honesty and sincere effort to not 'dwell' on our residual resentment in the hope that ultimately, we can let go of the essential selfishness that drives feelings of anger and prevents forgiveness.
This is really difficult for humans because of our very nature; in one Buddhist story a woman who lost her son went into deep mourning and would not allow anyone to take her son's corpse away from her; instead she travelled and searched for someone who could miraculously bring him back to life. Eventually through the dharma of Buddha she realized that she had to let go of her son both literally and figuritively: "casting aside the selfishness of her love for her son...."
The metaphor is obviously centered around the Buddhist teaching that every wordly concern is an illusion and must be cast aside in order to attain true freedom; in the context of this issue it's interesting to compare and contrast it to the other two situations of bereavement and subsequent actions.
"...Then don't go. Stay here with me. We'll start a jazz band."
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Michael .P
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Thursday, May 04, 2006 - 02:24 am: |
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I'm suprised from someone who speaks For capital punishment for those he believes deserve It..you show some genuine love for the Human race. I have no doubt that forgiveness is above all the best solution... but some of these people who forgive like this think little at all about it and forgivness can be seen almost as if its a reflex?
Michael william James
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Jim Armstrong
Starlite Member
Username: Njaeok
| | Posted on Thursday, May 04, 2006 - 01:58 am: |
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No Michael it isn't about going about looking for revenge and retribution and worring about getting in trouble.
To live with such hatred and vengful feelings is bad for you. It makes one sick in spirit and body and soon you are functioning on the same insane leval as the person who commited the transgression.
It is good sense to not let ones self be taken down that painful path by the actions of some sick mind. "Forgive them father for they know not what they do." (Jesus Christ)
There are real moral principles involved in the exercise of morality. That is one of them. There is another moral principle that motivates a moral adult to take steps to rid the community of rabid animanls and dangerous predators. But it is not revenge or anger or hatred. Such only leads to more transgressions. A chore to be done with loving thoughtfullness is the only moral way to approach such things.
Night brings darkening, hope is adjourning.
Despair spreading its relentless spawn.
Yet prayer brings harking to hope reforming.
It's always the darkest just before dawn, Jimbo
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Michael .P
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Thursday, May 04, 2006 - 01:06 am: |
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I disagree with your last example Jimbo..it has nothing to do with Good sense at all..perhaps it is good sense for them to conclude that it's not a great idea going out to seek revenge which would involve murder etc..or seeing that two wrongs don't make a right -that is good sense. Forgiving someone for raping and murdering their own flesh and blood..... this has nothing to do with good sense at all. If your definition of forgiveness is simply putting pain aside and not retalitating, it is very poor. Forgiveness should be alot more than good sense.. no one in their right mind would forgive someone who raped and killed their own daughter or son... Someone in their right heart might however. My only opinion on how someone could possibly forgive in a situation like that is a deep understanding of what life is and the value of it as an absolute with no exceptions. The lowest of the Low as equal as you and me. Common thought would tell you such and idea is hardly good sense at all..hence institutes hold those who threaten anyone elses life. To lock another man up like a caged animal regardless of what they've done definitely doesn't show an equal value of life. Although now that i think about it if life is just to live not to live with... than we're treating each other equaly and granting each other the same right...minus those who feel capital punishment is the beez neez solution to the problem. well i've learnt something at least thus far haha
Have fun discussing 
Michael william James
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Jim Armstrong
Starlite Member
Username: Njaeok
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 08:52 pm: |
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It seems to like "forgivness" is talked about from many different definitions.
Forgivness as in a parent telling a child, "its allright honey everybody makes mistakes" is one type of forgivness.
A person forgiving a friend a debt or a promise is another kind of forgivness.
To decide that there is nothing useful about holding feelings of anger and retribution after a crazy person has victimized a loved one and is brought to justice seems to me more like an exercise of good sense then an act of forgivness.
Night brings darkening, hope is adjourning.
Despair spreading its relentless spawn.
Yet prayer brings harking to hope reforming.
It's always the darkest just before dawn, Jimbo
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Bobbie Bruneau
Starlite Member
Username: Honesty811
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 08:09 pm: |
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In directing my thoughts on forgiveness, is intirely
upon how the indiviual seeks to find. With my knowledge of understanding forgiveness is within oneself. Either spiritually or not. If you are spiritual and you seek that approval from the higher source then, how it is showen depends upon the guidlines of ones faith or pattern designe.
I am not sure if this answers your question?
In conclusion can we anwsers ones question upon a request that has to do with ones inner soul
of another person. Judging that comes with the morals of that individual to judges or seek forgiveness.
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cath
Starlite Member
Username: Catscanfly
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 07:00 pm: |
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4913510.stm
today in my RMPS class we had a free discussion period on this Uk news story (the article is not exactly recent but the issue is still fairly fresh).
My teacher asked us all if we honestly believe that we could have shown the same courage and forgiveness in the circumstances.
the general conclusion from many was that as much as one would hope to possess the ability to do so, it is impossible to transpose oneself into such an extreme situation and the answer is therefore unknowable (one suspects however that in all honesty Mrs Walker might be one of an incredible and small strain of humanity with staggering moral courage and spiritual strength the likes of which most of us could only dream of)
lots of others in my class were more forthright; they argued that forgiveness in the circumstances was not morally 'required' of Mrs Walker since such an atrocious crime does not warrant absolution.
what do you think?
"...Then don't go. Stay here with me. We'll start a jazz band."
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