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Bubby
Starlite Member
Username: Bubby
| | Posted on Thursday, May 21, 2009 - 04:41 pm: | 
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and then that snake made his appearance...hasn't been the same since.But I do agree with you Mz Lottie!God has an underlying good nature and I hold all that believe in him in high esteem.
I would have preferred the phrase God has a good nature within. I have a problem with the word underlying.For instance,our Congress could never be accused of under lying...God Bless you my friend...Bubz |
Lottie457
Starlite Member
Username: Lottie457
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 20, 2009 - 01:33 am: |
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In the Beginning, God had an underlying good nature within His power,
To this day I look for that in people and hold it in high esteem.
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Annie
Starlite Member
Username: Annie
| | Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 04:11 pm: |
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This is quite an analogy and interpretation there of and well worth the read...You may be a nut case but you have made some points worth pondering. AHhhhh, Philosophy! A subject I do enjoy. I shall think on this and do a bit of research of my own. Love, Annie |
Mik3y
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 05:54 am: |
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It seems to me that what you know of original sin is the problem. Original Sin was never written as an excuse or a scapegoat quite the opposite it is to remind ourselves that we broke away from God no one forecfully grabbed adam or eves hand. The story is precisely for what you are saying you can achieve by abolishing the original sin complex. The whole original sin thing is to say that we have never had our free will taken away from us and that it is WE who personaly made the choice to go against God. See it is just as easy to say someone made up the concept of original sin and therefore we can abolish it etc..but to say hang on a minute did they and to actually go and research the true concept of original sin and what its really about is another. This idea of original sin im talking about is in your basic theology. The Christian doctrine is often palmed off quickly like this without any indepth research and sometimes none at all. I feel this letter is largely out of touch with the doctrine of the church. It is a long shot and an ill informed attack . If anyone believes this then i challenge to go and see for yourself find me a human being who has never sinned..a sinless being.. do we have another God walking this earth? In the church myself now i can see that the church truely does teach such principles of love etc and its not that the how to do steps arent there because they very much are in nowdays. It's that free will..and our ability to give that free will to God to trust in Him and live with Christ. We cannot as Catholics or christians or muslims whatever religion ever take away mans free will for even God Himself would not do this. God so honours our decision that if we do not chose him he accepts it He will not force any of us into His kingdom. When someone becomes a Catholic or a christian, muslim etc God does not take control of this mans hands and feet and tongue.. yes God inspires us but we make the choice always. Every decision we make we have the option to say yes God i want you here with me ..i chose you. I have notice many christians particulary new age christians come up to me and say to me you must accept Jesus..if you accept Jesus He will bless you with a good life. This is ultimately what we all want yes a good life? This is the whole purpose of his letter to probe and question to motivate us all to have a good life he wants the church to help etc. But is it what we think is a good life or what God see's as a good life. Take a moment if you can and reflect on the story of Job. When a new age christian or anyone says to be accept Jesus and be saved today.. i ask them and then what? do i not have to worry about being poor, thinking impure thoughts, not having enough food to eat, not having deformed children, not having a low income job, not having any trials and tribulations? I hope the points coming across that to accept Jesus as your Lord and saviour is not a once said thing and all things are clear, its not even a one line a day affair its a i accept jesus as my lord and saviour through every thought and action in every decision i make. This is so difficult but as Paul said never impossible and never should we find despair when things look bleak because with God we can move mountains. I may have gone a bit off track but ultimately i wished to speak about the living a good life and how we all have something in common..it is all our natural yearning to want a good life for this is what God created us for..but we honestly do not have a very good idea of what a good life is. We are shown and told what a good life is yet alot of us still think that job we like and the abundance of wealth or physical health is a dead give away of someone living a fruitful life...its not!
Michael william James
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Vanbengler
Starlite Member
Username: Vanbengler
| | Posted on Monday, July 03, 2006 - 05:54 am: |
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The following is a letter posted to the below noted people:
July 1, 2006
Canada Day
Dr. David R. Hawkins
The Institute for Advanced Theoretical Research
c/o The Institute for Advanced Spiritual Research
P.O. Box 3516
West Sedona, Arizona
U.S.A. 86340
RE: The doctrine of original sin and the Garden of Eden
Dear Dr. Hawkins,
In my search and on my journey through life, possibly very much like you I was looking for "answers". Especially I was looking for somebody else to give me "the answers". I did a lot of stuff . . . including cults. . . given that I was brought up in one that is where I naturally tended to go. And then, somehow; especially after my nervous breakdown (and working my own version of the 12 Step Program); which if you are interested is posted at my website www.manifestoofspiritualfreedom.com (see Chapter 26) I began to be able to think for myself. I recently had a conversation with someone in one of the spiritual discussion forums on the’net. I would like to share that discussion with you . . .
. . . "original sin" is just a notion that somebody made up; other people bought into it as if it were "truth" and didn't bother questioning it. Everything you/we/I say, do and think (create) is a function of our own mind; our perceptions of reality. Forget "duality". Me/you Us/them. We are all both separate and "connected" at the same time; like grains of sand on the beach. It takes an observer to observe this; but the observer is also part of what they observe. . . . . .
It seems to me that "sin" is purely a psychological projection of somebody else's spiritual ignorance projected onto another human being; infant or not. In my mind it is a ridiculous and extremely damaging notion that doesn't make any sense at all except to someone who wants to defend it and justify it . . . . purely out of spiritual ignorance. "Original sin" does not exist in "reality” except as a function of (my/our) mind.
If you were willing to change your mind about “original sin” . . . it wouldn't exist. But then we would lose our excuse to perpetrate our own spiritual ignorance i.e. “negative ego”. And if we lose our spiritual ignorance (transform our “negative ego”) then we would naturally "have to" or consciously and deliberately accept personal responsibility for learning how to live by positive spiritual principles . . . things like love, truth, compassion, forgiveness, humility, principle, intelligence, respect, kindness, consideration, gratitude, acceptance, generosity, i.e. "spiritual intelligence".
And who wants to do that? (only a truly committed human being) It's basically like saying, "Another possibility? Like, maybe I made a mistake? And I have to accept responsibility for it? And actually change my mind about it? Forget it!!! Sorry, I'm attached to my spiritual ignorance . . . (negative ego) doubt, fear, ignorance, anger, false pride, dishonesty and greed; self-deception, rationalization, justification and denial. I'm not willing to observe it or accept responsibility for it. Talk about it yes, theorize about it, yes. Impress you with how much I know about it, yes. Let it go and actually change my mind about it? And actually commit myself to learn how to live by positive spiritual principles? Forget it!!! It (my “negative ego”) serves me too well . . . . I like my "ego payoff". . . . unless for some reason I decide that I don’t . . . usually through severe pain and suffering; physical, mental, emotional and spiritual anguish and despair.
I remember hearing about someone who said something like: "Hear O Israel (seeker of spiritual truth) the Lord our God is one Lord, and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, with all thy mind, and all thy strength. This is the first commandment And the second is like: namely this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these". Isn't that the essence of Christianity? Why hasn't this been taught? Why hasn't this been practiced? Is it because we have to work it out for ourselves?
That same person (Jesus the Christ) also said something like: "The kingdom of God lies within; seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness (spiritual truth) and all these things shall be added unto you." It seems to me that is another way of saying, “We create our own reality . . . and we have to work it out for ourselves”.
What would happen if "we” changed our minds and saw each other not as 'sinners' but as loving lovable trusting innocent Children of God? Which at our essence is what I believe we really are? It would literally change the world overnight. Who wants to do that? Way too much work; and way too inconvenient . . . especially to our well trained ego's . . . . which for some unknown reason "needs” to see everything and everyone else as "bad". I don't get it . . . . . Christianity . . . who needs it? Well, actually we all do . . . who actually practises it? Very few indeed.
When I look at a Bible and the authors want to illustrate where the Garden of Eden is/was sure enough there it is in a little rectangle depicted or designated by a dot on the "eastern" border of that rectangle. However this is the 21st century now and more and more people are starting to realize that the earth is round . . . . . so, depending on your orientation from that popularly chosen little dot; the Garden of Eden can literally be in any direction . . . . think about that . . .
I have an idea that the Garden of Eden parable is a metaphor for our own mind in it's naturally pure state of loving lovable trusting accepting innocence (or pure unadulterated consciousness). Where is the "sin” in a newborn baby? Only in the corrupted mind of the observer projecting that "sin" onto the innocent infant child . . . . original sin? What a crock . . . deliberately perpetrated perpetual "evil" and spiritual ignorance by orthodox religion? You bet.
QUOTE: Holy Bible, George Lamsa translation; Genesis 2; 7 – 15
7: And the LORD God formed Adam out of the soil of the earth, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
8). And the LORD God planted a Garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. Commentary: It doesn’t say “in the east of Eden” (which would be a static location). It says “eastward in Eden” which means, moving, facing or situated towards the east. (which is dynamic; shifting; changing).
9). And out of the ground the LORD God made to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
10). And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads. "And a river went out of Eden . . . (that is; this river is not in Eden because it is going out ) to water the garden (so here we have reference to a river that is not in Eden that waters "the garden" that being "out” of Eden is not in Eden) and from thence it was parted. So, at this point I can think of no such river in any part of the world; and especially where this convenient little dot is located on all the maps.
So, that strongly suggests to me that this entire reference must clearly be allegorical or metaphorical. Please note from the wording that first we have "Eden" and then we have a garden that is not in Eden - that is; it is out of Eden and we have a flowing river (that doesn't exist) that divides into four "heads" out of Eden. These "heads" of all these rivers "should" connect to the river flowing "out" of Eden. With respect; can you find any such geogaphical formation, feature or structure? I have looked, and I can't. (And please don't try to explain it rationally unless you can back it up with fact.)
11: The name of the first is Pishon: it is the one which encirles the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold; Notice next the lands that these rivers water: The river Pishon “encircles” – surrounds entirely, encloses; envelops - Havilah - where is that? With respect I haven't got a clue. It’s not even in my dictionary.
12: And the gold of that land is good: there is also bdellium and the onyx stone.
13: And the name of the second river is Gihon, the one which encircles the whole land of Ethiopia. Gihon - that waters Ethiopia - I know where Ethiopia is and there certainly is no river flowing from that conveniently located little dot across the Suez peninsula to Ethiopia. (The Suez canal would have to cut through it). Besides that it doesn't water Ethiopia, it "encircles" it. That is; once again, it goes right around it; encloses it; envelops it. Once again, I can find no such river. Besides that, rivers don’t flow uphill and they don’t go in circles, they flow in more or less undulating lines . . . . downhill, not uphill.
14: And the name of the third river is Deklat (Tigris); it is the one which flows east of Assyria. By dictionary definition the Tigris river is a river in SW Asia flowing SE from SE Turkey (the old Assyrian Empire) through Iraq, joining the Euphrates to form the Shatt-el-Arab. And the fourth river is Euphrates. By dictionary definition the Euphrates is a river in SW Asia flowing from E. Turkey through Syria and Iraq, joining the Tigris to form the Shatt-el-Arab near the Persian Gulf.
It seems to me; when I look at a map and that conveniently located little dot; that the Tigris does not flow east of Assyria; it flows right through it. And where is the river that forms the head of these two rivers? I can’t find that; either . . . . I also notice that “east of Assyria” is in the exact opposite direction to the river Gihon – which encompasseth Ethiopia – in the west.
Next there is the Euphrates. As far as I can tell this is the only "real" river referred to and everybody knows where it goes so there is no need to say. Nevertheless the "head" of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers "should" be connected to another (bigger) river coming out of Eden. I infer that it "should' be "bigger' because it (the river coming out of Eden) divides into the four other ones just mentioned - which must, by all the natural laws of nature that I am aware of; be smaller than the original river coming out of Eden (because division makes things smaller).
15: And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. Then the Lord God took the man (where did he take the man from? From Eden . . .) and put him into the Garden of Eden. This is the first reference to "the Garden of Eden" and it appears to me that it is out of "Eden". That would tend to indicate to me that "Eden" is one thing and "the Garden of Eden" is another thing again. . . . and yet they are very closely related by the term “Eden”.
OK; now if you are now as confused as I am about all this and what it really means . . . great.
I just have an idea that all this must be metaphorical for something else that nobody can understand or explain rationally. What is that one thing? Intelligence or mind. What is mind? (I know I have provided a dictionary definition elsewhere; but where does mind come from?) Lets just say it doesn't come from anywhere: It is infinite in all directions, all pervasive, inexhaustible, the natural, perpetual source of everything else. Another way of saying this is that conscious intelligence is the "groundlessness" of all being. We create our own reality in the (differentiated, individual) Garden of Eden; the garden of our mind; the Temple of the Spirit of God - conscious intelligence. And we leave Eden (pure consciousness) to enter the Garden of Eden (matter, form, perception, distinction or differentiation).
Sort of like taking a drop of water from the ocean. That one differentiated individual drop is not the ocean; but it is of the ocean and from the ocean and it always returns to the ocean although it may have many adventures along the way and be spit up into the even smaller units that compose that one small drop. Technically all the elements that constitute the ocean are present in that one small drop. So we live in mind (God), we are of mind (God), we are individual units of mind (God) and we return to mind (God).
The Garden of Eden is out of Eden. (We are out of God). Remember that ancient peoples were not as "intelligent" as we are today. They could not process complex notions or ideas. (abstractions) So, I think that the Garden of Eden parable is a metaphor for consciousness itself and how we become differentiated from consciousness itself and become individuated units of consciousness or: living souls in the world of matter, form, perception and distinction – to dress it and to keep it.- to take care of it; assume responsibility for it. Which is what Dr. Hawkins says in his book, Power vs. Force the Hidden Determinants of Human Behaviour.
Dr. Hawkins: this is where I resume my personal conversation with a third party:
Anyway, that's my two bits worth. Hope you enjoyed reading as much as I enjoyed writing. Now, I have a question: What difference does any of this make to how I/you/we are going to go out and live our lives today? It might be an interesting mental exercise but does any of it really make any real difference?
With respect; somehow I doubt it; but you asked and I wanted to honor your question by answering it as reasonably and as rationally as I could. Now that I have done that . . . so what? What difference does it make to you? It's just an interesting mental exercise . . . . but I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.
The point is; how does answering these type of questions help me (or you) live a better life and be a better person? Is it going to help you give your child a hug and a kiss before you send them off to bed? Is it going to help you be a better friend to someone who needs your friendship? Not as far as I can tell. It's just an interesting mental exercise and if I don't watch it I'm going to turn into a total head-case. So, once again, best wishes, good luck; remember to be helpful whenever you can (in a real way . . in a way that matters) and give your kids a hug and a kiss goodnight.
Once again, if you like take a look at my website www.manifestoofspiritualfreedom.com I would suggest that you start with the Chapter "My understanding of the way of God and Nature" If you like, browse through the rest. It's going to be hard for most of you to read . . . but take what you like and leave the rest. Share it with others if you want . . . it's downloadable, printable and it's free.
"an unexamined life isn't worth living" - I don't know who said it first, maybe Socrates or Plato. Brian's corollary: "but examining (and changing) it can be a real pain in the ••• . . . . . ."
Best wishes, good luck and I hope you find what you want and what you are looking for. . . . "eastward" in Eden . . . pure consciousness itself as individuated in (or created in) the garden of your mind; the temple of the Spirit. Now: just to be complete I would like to offer you "my" version of the 12 Step program . . . . hope you find it helpful or at least interesting . . . .
THE TWELVE STEP PROGRAM
A.) Getting Right With God
Step 1: We (I) admitted that we were powerless over our "negative ego"; that our minds were totally undisciplined.
I (We): metaphysically; the ego. The nominative singular pronoun used by a person to refer to themselves.
admit: to concede as true or valid.
powerless: unable to produce an affect; lacking power to act; helpless.
negative: lacking positive attributes.
ego: psychoanalytically: The part of the psychic apparatus that experiences or reacts to the outside world and thus mediates between the primitive drives of the id and the demands of the social and physical environment.
id; the part of the psyche that is the source of instinctive survival energy.
It's impulses are modified by the ego and the superego.
superego; the part of the psyche that functions like the conscience in
mediating between the drives of the id and learned values or ideals (of the
soul?)
soul: the principle of life, feeling, thought, and action in man, regarded
as a distinct entity separate from the body. The spiritual part of man as
distinct from the physical part.
mind: The agency or part in a human or other conscious being that reasons, understands, wills, perceives, experiences emotions, etc. Psychologically; the totality of conscious and unconscious mental processes and activities of an organism. Attention; thoughts.
totally: complete in extent or degree; absolute; utter
undisciplined: lacking training to act in accordance with rules. Lacking instruction and exercise designed to train to proper conduct or action.
Step 2: Came to believe that only God could restore us to sanity.
Came: past tense of "come"; to arrive by movement or in course of progress. To extend; reach. To take place; occur; happen. To occur at a certain point; to occur to the mind; conceive in mind; i.e. "immaculate conception".
believe: To have confidence in the truth or reliability of something without absolute proof. To have confidence or faith in the truth of (an assertion.) To be more or less confident. To be persuaded in the truth or existence of. To have faith in the reliability in the honesty, benevolence, etc. of.
only: With no other one or anything else besides; no more than; merely; just.
God: spiritually; the creative cause of life and manifest reality; the ultimate source of all; ultimate reality (expressing and manifesting through human mind). All pervasive, inexhaustible; the natural perpetual source of everything else. Having the qualities of infinite, divine, inexpressible, incomprehensible, intangible, immutable, caring, creative love, truth, compassion, forgiveness, humility, principle and intelligence.
could: past tense of "can". To be able to; to have the ability, power or skill to. To have the power or means to. To have the right or qualifications to.
restore: To bring back to a former, original, or normal condition. To bring back to health, soundness or vigor. To give back; return; make restitution of (something taken away or lost).
sanity: The state of being sane; soundness of mind; normality. Having a sound, healthy mind. Having or showing reason, sound judgement, good sense.
3). We made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God.
We (I): metaphysically; the ego. The nominative singular pronoun used by a person to refer to themselves.
made: To bring into existence by shaping or changing material, combining parts; To produce, cause to exist; bring about; to form in the mind; conceive in mind; "immaculate conception".
decision; the act of making up one's mind. The quality of being decided; firmness (of resolve).
will: the faculty of conscious and particularly deliberate action; the power of control the mind has over it's own actions. Power of choosing one's own actions.
life: the condition that distinguishes animals and plants from inorganic objects and dead organisms, being manifested by growth through metabolism, reproduction and the power of adaptation to environment through changes internally. The animate existence or term of animate existence of an individual. A corresponding state, existence, or principle of existence, conceived of as belonging to the soul. Living things collectively. The sum of experiences and actions that constitute a person's existence.
care: worry, anxiety, concern; serious attention, solicitude; caution (as in great care); protection, charge, or temporary keeping (as in the care of a doctor); custody.
God: spiritually; the creative cause of life and manifest reality; the ultimate source of all; ultimate reality (expressing and manifesting through human mind). All pervasive, inexhaustible; the natural perpetual source of everything else. Having the qualities of infinite, divine, inexpressible, incomprehensible, intangible, immutable, caring, creative love, truth, compassion, forgiveness, humility, principle and intelligence.
B. (Getting Right With Myself)
4). I (We) made a thorough, searching and courageous moral and spiritual inventory of ourselves.
We (I): metaphysically; the ego. The nominative singular pronoun used by a person to refer to themselves.
made: To bring into existence by shaping or changing material, combining parts; To produce, cause to exist; bring about; to form in the mind; conceive in mind; i.e. "immaculate conception".
thorough: executed without negligence or ommissions; complete in all respects.
searching: to look at or examine carefully in order to find something concealed, missing or lost. To explore or examine in order to discover.
courageous: the quality of mind or spirit that enables a person to face difficulty, pain, etc. with firmness and without fear; bravery.
moral: of, pertaining to, or concerned with right conduct and it's principles.
spiritual: The incorporeal part of man in general or of an individual, or of an aspect of this, such as the mind or soul. Of or pertaining to the spirit or it's concerns as distinguished from bodily or worldly concerns.
inventory: a detailed, often descriptive list of articles; a tally or list of one's skills, aptitudes, traits, etc.
ourselves; one's own person, individuality, etc.
5). We admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being, the exact nature of our personal shortcomings and our personal misunderstandings.
I (We): metaphysically; the ego. The nominative singular pronoun used by a person to refer to themselves.
admit: to concede as true or valid.
God: spiritually; the creative cause of life and manifest reality; the ultimate source of all; ultimate reality (expressing and manifesting through human mind). All pervasive, inexhaustible; the natural perpetual source of everything else. Having the qualities of infinite, divine, inexpressible, incomprehensible, intangible, immutable, caring, creative love, truth, compassion, forgiveness, humility, principle and intelligence.
ourselves: plural of "myself"; used reflexively as a substitute for "me".
exact: strictly accurate or correct. Precise as opposed to approximate.
nature: The particular combination of qualities belonging to a person, animal, thing or class by birth, origin, or constitution. The instincts or inherent tendencies directing conduct. The true appearance of anything.
personal: of, pertaining to, or coming as from a particular person; individual; private.
shortcomings: a failure, defect, or deficiency in conduct, condition, thought, ability, etc.
misunderstandings: a failure to understand; mistake as to meaning.
understand: to perceive the meaning of; comprehend; grasp the idea of;
to be thoroughly familiar with; apprehend clearly the character, nature or
subtleties of.
6). We were entirely ready to have God help us transform all these shortcomings and misunderstandings.
entirely: wholly or fully.
ready: completely prepared; in fit condition or immediately available for action or use. Willing or not hesitant. In such condition as to be imminent; likely at any moment.
have: to experience, undergo, or endure.
God; spiritually; the creative cause of life and manifest reality; the ultimate source of all; ultimate reality (expressing and manifesting through human mind). All pervasive, inexhaustible; the natural perpetual source of everything else. Having the qualities of infinite, divine, inexpressible, incomprehensible, intangible, immutable, caring, creative love, truth, compassion, forgiveness, humility, principle and intelligence.
help: to contribute means or strength to; render assistance to; co-operate effectively with; aid; assist. To save, rescue, succour. To relieve (someone) in pain, sickness, need, or distress; to remedy.
transform: To change in condition, nature or character; convert; to change in form, appearance or structure; metamorphose.
all: the whole of; the whole quantity or amount.
these; used to indicate a person, place, thing or degree just mentioned or as well-known and characteristic.
shortcomings: a failure, defect, or deficiency in conduct, condition, thought, ability, etc.
misunderstanding: a failure to understand; mistake as to meaning.
understand: to perceive the meaning of; comprehend; grasp the idea of;
to be thoroughly familiar with; apprehend clearly the character, nature or
subtleties of.
C.) Getting Right With Others
7). We humbly and sincerely asked God to help us transform our shortcomings and misunderstandings. (If I could be so bold; see Manifesto of Spiritual Freedom; The Seventh Seal).
8). We made a list of persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all.
9). We made direct amends to such people wherever possible; except hen to do so would injure them or others.
D.) Staying Right With God, Self, And Others
10). We continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11). We sought through prayer, meditation and the science of kinisiology to improve our conscious contact with God; praying only for knowlege of God's will for us and the power to carry that out.
12). Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these Steps we compassionately carry this message to other addicted human beings and we practise these principles in all our affairs.
I hope that you might find this helpful or at least thought provoking. If you want to contact me personally I would like to suggest you browse my website first; and then I can be reached at vanbengler@hotmail.com I will respond to all emails as honestly, compassionately, sincerely, and respectfully as I can. But remember; You already have your own answers: The Spirit of God lies within . . . you just have to work it out for yourself.
Love always,
Brian Leslie Engler
773 E. 53rd. Ave.,
Vancouver B.C.
Canada V5X-1J7
vanbengler@hotmail.com
cc: The Pope, The Roman Catholic Church
The Dalai Lama
The Archbishop of Canterbury
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