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Leakimo
Starlite Member
Username: Leakimo
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2011 - 10:33 am: | 
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I would prefer being a believer and chance being right, than a non-believer and chance being wrong. If one is a believer and is wrong, what has he lost. Think about what the non-believer loses for not believing. |
Grailknight777
Starlite Member
Username: Grailknight777
| | Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 11:39 pm: |
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Precisely! It matters not how we come to Jesus, so long as we come to Him. That was what I was attempting to get at, actually... I just took the long road (through the distant past) to get there. |
Bubby
Starlite Member
Username: Bubby
| | Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 04:48 pm: |
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AMEN!!! |
Gracie_b
Starlite Member
Username: Gracie_b
| | Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 04:08 pm: |
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Guys, some of this sounds like a Harry Potter novel! It is all as simple as this:
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
It is a choice, and the choice is yours. You can make it as comlpicated and long winded as you want! It will not change the truth of God's Word. If you believe in God, and you do not believe what He says, then you are lost. |
Grailknight777
Starlite Member
Username: Grailknight777
| | Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 01:40 am: |
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The trouble with spirituality is that it is a different thing for everyone. A great deal of my beliefs in the past two decades have come about because of my direct experiences with spiritual and supernatural forces and beings in my life and in the lives of some of my relatives. If you've read a great deal of my poetry you might almost think I were of a Luciferian philosophy, but in truth I do not follow any mainstream creed or code but my own. My own has been informed a lot by personal experiences and research done to help understand those experiences. Also, it is hardly a secret that I am an adamant believer in the notion of reincarnation. Yet even in that, I am not mainstream. For instance, in my experience man cannot incarnate as anything contrary to what God made him to be. Therefore, a human being will always reincarnate as a human being. Never as an animal, which some people incorrectly believe. However, an angel can fall and become human! But a human is (in God's view) superior to the angels and thus once human always human. The exception to this rule is that when Christ returns in His second coming He is supposed to grant every one of the elect "glorified bodies"... which sounds like what the ancient Pagans thought of as god-like or divine physical forms. (Yes, there is a lot more common ground between ancient Pagans and Christians than most people realize! That is why the Pagans were so easily Christianized back in the day. Look up Ragnarok and compre it to the Book of Revelation sometime. Almost identical!) But I digress, and am going a lot off topic here.
My family has a history with the spiritual and the supernatural that goes back generations, with some of my ancestors even having warlocks and witches amongst them. (And more than a few other ancestors of mine were Knights Templar as well.) Make of this story what you will:
One night, when I was about 16 years old, I and my mother, and my cousin Carey were all out for a walk past the pond in the middle of town. When we reached a certain spot, a series of disc-shaped lights appeared in the sky. Five of them, and in a formation that resembled an inverted star. They would weave in and out, but kept that formation. We walked towards town, running away from that infernal gathering, and my mother picked up a pair of black sunglasses she found on the ground. Immediately afterwards, a woman appeared who was not human. My mother saw a black-haird woman with large black eyes and a small mouth, wearing a shirt that had a date on it. (Years later, it would prove to be the date my little brother was born on!) My cousin Carey saw the same woman as being a blonde in a white tee-shirt. (One year later, she met a woman matching that description who got into a fight with her.) Me, I saw no one there at all. But I did hear a woman's voice that said: "Give me my sunglasses back!" and on all of us hearing the apparition say this, my mother got rid of the glasses by throwing them into a nearby open car window. We went back home, followed by the infernal flying saucers, which my mother kept saying were trying to get her to go to the park up the street. The next day, I went to the park to investigate and encoutered strange things. A faceless being all in white that pointed me down a path through the woods that led me to a chance encoutner with the archangel Lucifer his/herself. I will say no more about that encounter here, for I've written some poems about it already. Enough to say that I know this being perhaps too well! But that was not the strangest thing that did happen to me. The strangest by far was the night when the woman my mother described climbed into my bedroom through an open window and seduced me. She turned out to be Lilith, and told me about a past history we shared together in other lives. She was an alien, it turned out, but she was of a spiritual substance as well as physical. Very hard to describe, actually. She left before the morning, and has never returned. That is just one encounter with the supernatural from my lifetime. Well before I was born, my mother and grandmother went swimming in a pond in New Jersey that had been the location for a U.F.O. sighting that was featured in U.F.O. magazine back in those years. And the year I was born, there was a prophecy in the town I was born in that a male child born on that date was in reality an ancient spirit come to take on human flesh once again. The beings I have encountered let me know this pertained to me and the course my life has taken has proven them correct since after my encounter with Lucifer and Lilith all of my past life memories came back to me with a vengeance. Previously, that had come to me only a few at a time! Were they evil beings? Not to me. To me, they were messengers come to deliver unto me knowledge that I lacked and God (or the Devil if that's your view) wanted me to learn. My brother has had less intense encounters with such beings, but his have left him certain of the existence of God, the Devil, Heaven, and Hell. Some people compare us to the two brothers on the show "Supernatural" which I cannot say if that is true beause I've never watched the show to judge. And then there is my Near Death moment!
Back around 1991, more or less, I came down with a severe case of tonselitis that was so bad that I stopped breathing one night and so was declared dead. While out of my body, I was taken on up to Heaven and then given a tour of Purgatory... and then Hell. I had not yet read anything written by Dante or Milton at that point in my life, but all that I was shown would turn out to be much too frighteningly similar in too many ways to such stories, for it to be a mere coincidence. I have been to Heaven, Purgatory, and Hell. I have seen the Devil and it is not the archangel Lucifer but a being of total and utter darkness and evil that has no physical form at all. Although it can at certain times attempt to assume one! God is also a non-physical being, and His far more physical female form (Sophia) does the talking for Him. She is the woman from Revelation that is "Clothed like the Sun", and the Devil despises her equally to God. Read my poems "Amongst the Dead" and "The Marble Palace" if you'd like to learn more about all of this. They are an exact record of all my experiences out of my body from when I was dead.
The Devil was what the ancients called "Tiamat", and don't ask me how but I know that she had been the queen of the planet that is now our galaxy's asteroid belt. Her people used Mars as a colony too, and that also was wiped out (along with the dinosaurs on Earth) when God grew angry and sent the archangel Michael (who was called Marduk back then) to wipe out those habitations of the fallen angels and their "Dragon Queen". This did nothing to kill her, for some of her "Dark Essence" was carried to Earth by an asteroid, and so the Devil has been here ever since being cast down. Hell is a part of this world, even though it exists in another plane or rather dimension. Although I am of some Gnostic beliefs, I must totally disagree with their opionion that the archon Ialdabaoth was both God and the Devil. This being (the very same one that scientologists call Xenu or Xemu in their neo-Gnostic OT III), was very mortal and more human than you might think. How do I know? Because I myself was Ialdabaoth, and being human and forced to reincarnate from one lifetime after another lifetime until I've repented of all my past arrogance is the punishment that God placed upon me. I know it sounds crazy, but it is true and I will give the full details of all that I remember about the dawn of time in a story I'll be posting to Starlite Cafe very soon. So you'll have to be patient to hear it from the horse's mouth (so to speak). Once you do, you'll know my story better than the Gnostics recorded it in the fragments of their scriptures that survived the Church's attempts to burn and ban them (for fear of certain truths becoming known, such as that Mary Magdalence was equal to Peter... and women have an equal right to be priestesses of the Lord as men do to be priests). As you can see, I do not favor any one religion in particular, here! If I seem to have any bias against the Church in my philosophies, it is only because in this life I was abused in a Catholic Shool as a child, and in my incarnation as Vlad Dracula they declared my beloved wife and soulmate to be damned due to her having committed suicide. Something I do not agree with at all. No mortal is infallible, and even the most learned can be wrong sometimes. To believe otherwise is arrogance of the sort I was punished by God for (along with Lucifer for the sin of pride and Lilith for the sin of lust). A lot of people ask if I am a scientologist or a mormon due to the more sci-fi seeming aspects of my beliefs... but I of neither such faiths. As I said, everything I know to be true about religion I know from my own perspective and no one else's.
Incidentally, my grandmother is a very properly ordained methodist Reverend and I have an uncle who is a mormon priest. My grandfather's brother was a baptist minister too! So my family has been piously religious for generations now. Yet even so, we know certain little known facts that a lot of the masses do not. I am not saying we know all the truths of the universe... only that, for us, experience has been the best teacher. One thing I should mention that will help you realize I speak the truth in what I realte to you: I was a total atheist living in denial of myself and God when I was a teenager. It took my direct encounters with the supernatural combined with all my past life memories and out of body experiences to finally convert me to a believer. Today, I tell everyone my story... and that God is real. My faith is not faith as such to me, but cold hard facts. Your experiences in life may inform you of your own facts, and that is where your faith may well come from. All faiths have equal merit so long as we live in harmony with one another and do not war, nor hate, in the name of any religion. Remember this, and God will smile upon you (you will also understand my own spiritual nature better)...
We are not physical beings trying to be spiritual but rather we are all spiritual beings trying to be human. In my case, this is most evident and obvious... in yours, perhaps you've never stopped to consider such matters. But what of good and evil, the topic of this thread from the get-go?
How can we apply terms like good or evil to the unknowable? God being supreme in all creation is not understandable in human terms, nor angelic terms either. God is beyond all things, and so we limit Him by trying to define Him. In that way, God is neutral I still maintain! We call it good when He is kind and loving, and we call it evil when He punishes us. But how does God see His nature? With humility that goes beyond even that which Jesus projected, being in a human form as He was and therefore still bound by some mortal limitations. The most humble of souls will not be quick to say: "I'm good" for fear of falling far short of the mark. They also will not say: "I am evil" because they strive to do good. It's really a catch 22 in that sense! Only by defining it as a kind of neutral attitude towards definitions of good and evil allows us to begin to make sense of a transcendant God who is not bound by any mortal limitations. If you are a member of a faith that requires you to define God, then you will never agree with this concept because it was not ever taught to you. It probably seems alien to you, if such is the case... but that's only human, after all. Thusly, it is a trick to ask what God would allow the Devil to exist because by God's very naure He gives all living things a chance. When they transgress to far, they are punished, as the Devil was. But because God loves even His enemy, He allowed the Devil to continue to exist in its' plane of exile (Hell). God allowed the "Fall" as you would call it because He loved mankind so much that He saw the merit in letting them free from any servitude. God is not a tyrant, after all! And so we come back to my initial arguments.
This is actually fitting, since time itself is a cycle that we only percieve as having a beginning a middle and an end. God is eternal because time is timeless and allows for eternity to exist. A linear universe would not allow an eternal state to be, and so to know that God is real (which I do) is also to be forced to accept a new view of time itself, and therefore also of space... and of energy and matter. Incidentally: the spirit is energy and the body is matter! The spirit is just a kind of energy that is not detected by science as we currently understand it. Were we able to pierce the veil between the visible and invisible and therefore peer into other planes and other dimensions, then we would understand the nature of spriitual energy. However, because scientists are atheists by nature, they would not know what they had when they had it... likely glossing it over as something less than what it was. The only reason I mention time in this discussion, and the spiritual aspects of it, is beause just as we are limited in our views of good and evil we are also limited in our perceptions of creation itself. The reason human beings limit their notions of good and evil is the same reason why they create so many taboos and limitations regarding love and passion. Because they fear to not be in control of the situation. They fear chaos. But what is needed is not more control or more limitations, but rather a more refined understanding beyond what it seems human beings today are capable of. Let us move on now, or we'll never get to the end of this part of the discussion...
Now, someone mentioned predestination, did they not? I didn't read all of it, so I'm nor sure if they were believers in it or not. But one thing I do know for a fact is this: we all have a destiny but we do not all live up to it. To know oneself is to know the reason for one's existence as it currently is. Mine is related to bad karma in the past, going back to the dawn of time and my dumb rebellion. Maybe you have lived before, but not so anciently as I did. Perhaps you have some bad karma, but it could be from only one or two odd lifetimes back. Did you commit some crime that in this life you are now paying for? You never know. It could be. People often ask why bad things can happen to good people... but if we are limited in what we consider good, then perhaps the people we sometimes think are good might not be so pure as we would like to believe. That is the nature of predestination: that God knows each person from their very beginnings to their final fates. And since God is only just, then we need to realize that while yes... sometimes bad things do happen to true innocents.... there can also be moments when we are instead talking about karma coming back to bite someone in the butt so to speak. It happens to all of us at one point in life or another. And it happens because we all sin, and we all must be punished for that sin if we fail to repent of it. That is the way God thinks about it, anyway. If an all-encompassing universal force like God can be said to "think" as we may understand thought. There are people in Hell for all eternity, but some parts of Hell exist for a more temporary form of punishment. Even the most damned souls are given one final chance to repent before they face final judgment! Reincarnation is the means by which mercy can be shown to such souls as those. My grandfather's only vice was that he loved to eat, but I once had a vision of Hell in which he was being punished for Gluttony before being allowed to repent of it and have a chance to go to Heaven. He was never an evil man, so if Hell has places in it that are not just reserved for "evil" then truly how can we ever understand what is good or evil in God's eye? Our guide is faith, but faith is never an exact and precise science! That is why we call it a belief. Beause we think we are doing what is right... but being human we are sometimes wrong. So trust me when I say, that good and evil are not absolutes in this universe! And even if you don't want to believe the words of a "fallen angel" like me... you have to admit I make a lot of sense despite it all. I am not here to antagonize or upset any person's applecart. I am here merely to educate and inform others of spiritual matters for the betterment of their souls. Just as I am repenting we are all repenting in our own ways. Every preacher will tell you: "we all deserve to go to Hell" but God gives everyone chances to prove otherwise. Call this good, if you will, but after thousands of years of reincarnating you might see little differnce between Hell and eternal life in this way. Does that make it "evil" then? No. It merely means that sometimes a second chance can require a long road filled with much sacrifice and understanding on the part of the individual. Eventually, we all get to the final destination, and only then can we know if we did right or wrong. Death is never the end of life, therefore. Not until we have either proven worthy of Heaven or damned enough for an eternal stay in Hell. If all of this sounds confusing, it is only because we are talking about esoteric matters here. Not earthly matters. So let's bring this discussion back down to terra firma, shall we?
Essentially, the thread's question cannot ever be given one answer because we all percieve divinity differently though unique eyes that are very much our own. Colored by individual experience. None can deny that much! I have given my answer to it and others have given theirs. We can only agree to disagree when the dust settles and our minds come down from wherever we send them in search of answers. However, we should disagree with more tolerance I think and less prejudice towards the beliefs of others. No one can help the way their lives turn out, because no one can see the future and predict how they will think years down the road. I cannot change my beliefs because for me I have seen "evidence" of sorts to back them up. You could well tell me the same thing form your perpective. That is the nature of mankind: that we are bound by our perceptions and experiences to keep to what we beleive no matter what. I will leave this thread with that stated since it is good food for thought. Be tolerant of others, be humble, and show compassion first and foremost. That will allow for enlightenment to come from these discussions rather than chaos. People who chance upon what we say here will not want to see conflict. That just gives atheists their fuel to say: "See, belif in God makes people fight! That is why we are better off not believing." Let them see understanding amongst enlightened equals even of vastly different faiths and life experiences. That is all I can add to what I have said thus far, and it is the perfect note to bid farewell on. --- Farewell for now! Love and Light to all. |
Pmbulo
Starlite Member
Username: Pmbulo
| | Posted on Monday, October 11, 2010 - 06:19 am: |
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PREDESTINATION
God’s will is predestinated. Whenever the terminology - "predestination" comes on the scene, a lot of people associate it with a staunch Southern Baptist. I know that the very mention of the subject, I mean the word in question, causes shivers and many refuse to analyze it. Oh yes, so passionate an animal is prejudice and how easily familiar is theological misconception. I understand the confusion with the issue of predestination though it is not something that is easy to understand. Again I know that this remark may cause some rising of eyebrows but hold it because I'm about to warrant it by scriptural facts and sound doctrine.
The Greek word for "predestinate" is "proorizo" {pro-or-id'-zo} meaning “decide upon beforehand”, and is used six times in the Authorized Version (AV/KJV). All the six times are seen here below, with the four using “predestine” and the two other renderings being "determine before" and "ordain before" but in original Greek all are proorizo i.e. predestinate. Lets see:
[Romans 8:29] “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”
[Romans 8:30] “Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”
[Ephesians 1:5] “Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.”
[Ephesians 1:11] “In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worked all things after the counsel of his own will”
[1 Corithians 2:27] “But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory.”
[Acts 4:27-28] “For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hath anointed both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, for to do what so ever thy hand and counsel determined before to be done.”
To begin with, let me briefly state how I was saved. I had an inner revelation through reading a book (Like A Gentle Breeze Of Jesus Christ) - an account on the Malaysia Great Revival. In conjunction with the bible, the book explained that Salvation is attained by accepting the Calvary’s offer contrary to works and the observance of Law. It came clear to me that my self-righteousness at best was like filthy garments before the eyes of God. I realised I was lost and that there was no other way to earn God's favour. Fortunately I realised too that Christ died to redeem me and I therefore cried out to him to save me. Oh what manner of peace filled my soul!!! Some of you are familiar with my experience. Slowly along my Christian walk, I came to comprehend the fact that it was God who found me and not that I found Him, and I gave and I continue to give all the glory to Him for having showed His mercy to my soul. Listen Christ did not die that I may be saved but that I be saved and thank God I'm saved!!! The same applies to you if you understand the plan of salvation. Be glad that you are His. He had the elect in mind when He executed the plan at the cross. There is no doubt in His work that He did at the cross. This is precisely what I want to prove in this discussion.
Regardless of the preaching as we may, and of which we have to, the intended objective of this thesis is to show that salvation does not depend on a man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy; and consequently show also that predestination precedes creation. Nevertheless, it is not to nullify the effort in our preaching of salvation to all human beings but to state the truth the way it is.
A number of questions have been asked of me on the World Wide Web and here now I address them:
1. AM I A PASTOR?
It depends what you mean. But definitely as per the biblical fact, I'm a royal priest and a king. (1 Peter 2:9) The fact that I've never been to any formal clergy training school does not demean my status. I'm not trying to be proud, but it is on the contrary to state the truth the way it is, is that I'm striving. All the knowledge that I have has been through self home study of bible over the many years. I'm an engineer by profession if at all that can be of meaning to that which you may be seeking of me.
2. AM I A MEMBER OF A BAPTIST CHURCH?
The answer is that I have never been into a Baptist church. True I had connections with some of the Calvinist Mainstream Churches but not anymore. I have a searching mind. In my opinion most Baptists are deeply rooted in Calvinism. But this is not to say I'm a Baptist. The truth is that I'm a Pentecostal. I know this comes as a surprise considering the main stream Pentecostal doctrine that is ant-predestination. The thing is that no single denomination has the full perfect doctrine. And to sum it up all, not all Pentecostal preachers are ant-predestination believers. Moreover believing or not believing predestination does not dilute salvation. A person can be saved regardless of inclination of doctrine on the issue at hand.
3. HOW MANY WILL BE SAVED? IS IT ONLY THE 144,000?
Even if they had to say that only one would be saved, the thing is that I say that that one would be me because I know what I have believed and I'm more that persuaded that the love of God upon me is too great to be measured. On the other hand the bible is nevertheless very clear on the issue. Look it up in:
3.1 The 144,000 Rev. 7:4-8
3.2 The Great Multitude In White Robes Rev. 7:9-10
Notice the wording that: ".......there before me was a great multitude that no one could possibly count......." So in this respect there will be countless people that will be saved. Who knows, these might out number the ones that will be hell. After all, ¾ of angels were preserved where as only ¼ are bound with everlasting chains in Tartarus - perhaps
the lowest region of hell. Notice that I did not say that hell would be outnumbered by paradise neither the other way round. Only God knows.
4. PREDESTINATION AND LOSS OF SALVATION?
May I say this in my preamble: God knows how to preserve those that are His, and above all, those that are saved (the elect) will never be comfortable to remain in a backslidden state.
Now lets go to the accusations and controversies:
The trouble is that those people who do not believe in predestination always quote half scriptures and build an inference false doctrine upon it. The example is Philippians 2:12: which reads:
"Therefore my dear friends, as you have always obeyed - not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence - continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,....."
With the above, they claim that one earns his/her salvation and that can equally loose it if he/she does not work on it. However, believe me you that the next verse Philippians 2:13 reads:
"......for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose."
So you see that the bible is consistent in saying that faith is a gift from God and that it is God who causes us to believe in salvation and to hold on to that which we first believed (salvation). This comes out plain if you read the whole context instead of just verse 12.
Another argument used by anti-predestination people is that they quote that “God does not desire that any should perish but that all should come to the saving knowledge of Christ”
1Ti 2:4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a full knowledge of the truth.
But what we should know that the word “all” is used in reference to the elect. If it were not for so, God forbid, then the following verse should be deleted from the bible:
[Romans 11:25] “I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved.”
Why don’t they extend the same argument of the usage of the word “all” to mean literally all of the Israelites. Are they afraid that Herod Antipas and Judas Iscariot would qualify to enter Paradise? “All” does not mean “everything”. You see that God has a specific people - a specific number called the elect (the chosen ones).
[Matthew 24:22] ”If those days had not been cut short, no-one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
“No one can come to me except the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day.” [John 6:44]
See also John 13:18 and Luke 18:7
The initial faith of the elect is not of their own making. Look also at the following scriptures for further reference:
[Ephesians 2:8-9] “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this is not from yourselves, it is a gift of God – not by works, so that no-one can boast.
[Phi. 1:29] “For it has been granted on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for Him”
[Heb. 8:10] “This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God and they will be my people.”
The most unfortunate thing is that the clergy refuse to conform to the bible teaching of predestination on account of presuming that it would be unfair for God to choose only the elect and send the rest to hell. Added on this is the failure to find out the basis on which God will judge all mankind considering that He favors only the elect. It is no doubt that the clergy are in a state of perplexity and unsettlement coupled with uncertainty as to the road ahead. They have designed their own theory on matter. But the substitute line of thought does not answer the ends for which the authenticity the bible was written and has been faithfully proving and serving all along its inception to date. Simply put it: The word of God is better by far, and so no substitute line of thought can deliver that which God intended to be transported to the souls of the elect. The bible is against us humans if we preach in a fashion that is not enshrined in the word of God. The fact that such practice has become a common standard, it is of great need among those of us who purpose to believe only what is written to urgently readdress the matter and review it in line with the word of God.
First let us establish the following truth:
It is sin that sends people to hell through the transgression of the law. Therefore even if God saves whom ever He chooses, He is by no means sending the rest to hell purposely.
Secondly, God will judge people in accordance to their deeds. See Rom. 2:11-16. If they will be found to have sin, they will proceed to hell. People are sinful by birth and as well as by choice and the conscious bears witness. So no one in hell will be able to defend his/her case.
Now having established the points above, please kindly answer the following multiple-choice question:
Christ died for…………..
(a) all the sins of all the people
(b) some of the sins of all the people
(c) all the sins of some of the people
CASE A
If Christ died for all the sins of all the people then all the people are all saved. But the reality is that not all people are all saved. Thus CASE A is not valid.
CASE B
If Christ died for some of the sins of all the people then all the people are not saved. But the reality is that not all people are all not saved. Thus CASE B is not valid.
CASE C
If Christ died for all of the sins of some of the people then some of the people are saved. And this is the reality that some people (the elect) are saved. Thus CASE C is valid.
Let us go back to CASE A. Many of you still think that Christ died for all the sins of all the people. Well then why are all people not saved since you suggest that Christ died for all their sins? You might say that because of unbelief. But is unbelief sin? Yes ofcourse it is sin. Now if Christ died for all the sins then unbelief is also included thus it follows logically that you are declaring that all are saved contrary to the truth. Lack of faith causes a person not to believe. If you have faith you will believe. If you don’t have faith you won’t believe. It’s not possible that you can have faith and yet fail to believe. So the notion that everyone is given a portion of the initial faith of Salvation is hereby declared null and void.
The bible puts it plain that we are saved not by works nor by observing the law but through faith in Christ Jesus, and this faith is not of our own making but it is a gift from God so that none can boast.
“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this is not from yourselves, it is a gift of God – not by works, so that no-one can boast. [Ephesians 2:8-9]
Therefore principally, the initial faith to believe in Salvation is given by God only to the elect.
A sinner is dead in sins. He cannot by himself recognize that Jesus Christ died for the remission of a sinner’s sins. This calls for an initial inspiration by the Holy Spirit to understand the grace that comes from the cross. It is not by choice to fail to see the truth of God’s redemption power. Look at this:
[2 Cor. 4: 4] “The god of this age has blinded the eyes of the unbelievers, so that they can not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God”
[1 Cor. 2: 14] “The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
[John 8:44] "Ye are of your father the Devil, and the lusts (desires) of your father ye will do."
A sinner cannot do the things that he would as shown in Romans 7:14-24. So how can you say, “I choose to be born again”? The proper way to say it is that “I was called”.
“Remember, dear brothers and sisters, that few of you were wise in the world's eyes, or powerful, or wealthy when God called you.” [1 Corinthians 1:26:]
I’m not saying that you are not born again. All I’m saying is that deep in your heart you know that it came as a revelation the way to be saved. You were so happy to understand it and you even wished you knew it back in time. In short God predestined you and called you at the appointed time and you entered the door and found your name already written down.
Well you may say that God has no right to punish the wicked since it is not of their choice to fail to see the salvation plan. However, we all ought to understand that God is the potter and we humans are clay. How can clay say or put a case before the almighty potter? Tell me, why are fallen angels not included in the plan of salvation? Again tell me why demons are not are part of it? Look, He is God and He saw it fit to redeem only the elect among the humans and none at all among the fallen angels and equally none among the demons. Well you may say that demons and fallen angels do not just want to believe? My question is are you sure? My bible tells me that they believe that Christ is the Son of God and they tremble. You might think that I'm off limits but the truth is some pots are for noble use while some are not - they are for common use. Suppose it was His idea to create objects of his wrath in order to make His objects of His grace (the elect) to see Gods grace?
Rom 8:28 And we know that he works all things together for the good of those who love God, who are called according to his purpose.
Am I saying the truth? Ofcause yes, for it was God who loved Jacob more than Esau. You might think that Jacob pleased God more than Esau in his deeds and thus you conclude that God was persuaded to favour Jacob over Esau. But the truth is that even before the kids could distinguish between right and wrong and even before they were born, God had already chosen Jacob. You can check out my line of argument in chapter 9 of the letter of Paul to the Romans.
Rom 9:10 Not only that, but Rebecca became pregnant by our ancestor Isaac.
Rom 9:11 Yet before their children had been born or had done anything good or bad (so that God's plan of election might continue to operate
Rom 9:12 according to his calling and not by works), Rebecca was told, "The older child will serve the younger one."
Rom 9:13 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
Rom 9:14 What can we say, then? God is not unrighteous, is he? Of course not!
Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will be merciful to the person I want to be merciful to, and I will be kind to the person I want to be kind to."
Rom 9:16 Therefore, God's choice does not depend on a person's will or effort, but on God himself, who shows mercy. [ISV]
It is better to read the whole chapter 9. Read this chapter carefully and you will realise that our little minds are too imperfect to comprehend the ways of God. Please before you dismiss my argument, kindly read Romans chapter 9.
Oh yes you may ask about the possibility of loosing Salvation. May I in turn ask you what you make of this?
"For God's gifts and His call are irrevocable." [Rom. 11:29]
How about the handing over of an immoral brother to the devil so as only his soul will be saved on the Day of Judgment (The JUDGMENT CITY OF CHRIST)?
1Co 5:1 It is actually reported that sexual immorality exists among you, and of a kind that is not found even among the gentiles. A man is actually living with his father's wife!
1Co 5:2 And you are being arrogant instead of being filled with grief and seeing to it that the man who did this is removed from among you.
1Co 5:3 Even though I am away from you physically, I am with you in spirit. I have already passed judgment on the man who did this, as though I were present with you.
1Co 5:4 When you are gathered together in the name of our Lord Jesus and my spirit and the power of our Lord Jesus are present,
1Co 5:5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the Day of the Lord.
Whether we want to believe it or not, the truth is that Christ died only for the elect. See Rom. 11:25. It is not true to say that predestination has a negative impact on the progression of Christianity. On the contrary, it is ant-predestination that purports the idea of willfully sinning and repenting and sinning deliberately while repenting as long as one lives or as long as the rapture is far off. However, with predestination, the issue is that if we sin deliberately, then the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:6 If we claim that we have fellowship with him but keep living in the darkness, we are lying and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 2:4 The person who says, "I have come to know him," but does not continually keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.
This in my opinion, and acts as a powerful remind on the hearts of all those that have been saved to hold on to the faith. Therefore it is folly to assume that one can live a careless life for as long as he or she is saved. If one does so then they are not saved - period!!!!
It is also my opinion that the anti-predestination belief denies to accredit all the glory to God for the redemption of a person because of its insistence on the condition. I did show that even the initial faith is also a gift from God. In this light I cannot be accused of using underhand methods to subvert the empirical. Listen, simply because anti-predestination is a popular belief does not warrant that it is not erroneous.
I do not desire to be misunderstood. Look, I did not attack anti-predestination in order to justify my belief in predestination. Before undertaking the discussion of the corns of advantage/disadvantage of the inference derived from anti-predestination in reference to
predestination, I had put my case very clearly: It was evident that my line of thought was in compliance with the authenticity of the bible as shown from the scriptures. Furthermore I believe and have by now accepted it as fact that it's not by confining one's own neighbor that one is convinced of one's own sanity. So humanly speaking too, I cannot sink so low in order to qualify and justify my statement. It is the scriptures that clearly state that before the foundation of the universe (before creation) God foreknew the elect and predestined them to be core-heirs with Christ. Why? Because it pleased him to do so. Dear friends you are not God to question His choice of doing things. God's word is immutable and so are his ways.
I think I have raised too much dust and I apologize to have discussed such in this forum. I say so because we are all slaves of other people’s consciences and pardon me if I did step on your toes. I don't know where the most ideal place could be so as to afford us an opportunity to share it. It has however been a deliberate effort on my part to come out so strong in argument so as to provoke you to join this discussion forum. We all want to learn and I believe this forum can present an ideal opportunity of a comprehensive bible study. So please join in any thread of discussion and you are free to differ with anyone’s views including my personal opinions. Iron sharpens iron. We need you.
Shalom! Shalom! Ever-loving,
Potpher C. C. Mbulo. B.Eng (UNZA), MBA (ESAMI & MsM), R.Eng (IEEE)
+260-979-743434 and +260-955-996712
pmbulo@yahoo.com; pmbulo@zesco.co.zm
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Mik3y
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Sunday, October 10, 2010 - 01:43 am: |
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also found this which is useful, a much shorter way of explaining my point on free will heh.
But the idea of free will means we actually have a choice - not a perceived choice, but a REAL choice. If God only created people whom he knew would not reject him, then nobody on earth could actually reject God. The choice would be phony - an illusion.
And, oddly enough, it throws the entire economy of salvation out of wack. After all, if I cannot choose to reject God (because God would not create someone who would reject him), then I have no need of salvation
Michael william James
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Mik3y
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Sunday, October 10, 2010 - 01:39 am: |
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Certainly God could annihilate individuals should he have chosen to do so. But he gave humans immortal souls that survive the separation of body and soul, which is what death is.
Hell was not created by God. Hell was created when angels freely chose to eternally separate themselves from God. Because angels and human beings were given free will, God allowed for the possibility of hell, but he did not directly create it.
Hell is the eternal separation of creatures from their Creator. The angels who fell did this by one irrevocable choice. Humans' choice for heaven or hell is settled irrevocably at their deaths. The punishments of hell are entirely self-inflicted, so we cannot say that hell is an "external motivation" created by God to inspire humans to be good. At most, God may allow human fear of hell to work as such an "external motivator."
Some Christians, such as Seventh-day Adventists, think that it is unmerciful for a loving God to torture fallen humans for all eternity and so they imagine it more in keeping with God's loving nature for him to annihilate unrepentant evildoers. They are right that a loving God does not eternally torture people, but they are wrong in their understanding of the nature of hell.
Michael william James
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Mik3y
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Sunday, October 10, 2010 - 01:13 am: |
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Sorry i forgot to comment on the whole Satan and hell thing. God is good. He is not neutral. He is choice. This openess can create the chance to choose evil, but it does not itself create evil.
If we go down your line of thinking we can fall into the same argument early muslims did when they were fighting over whether Allah allows both good and evil or only good. Muhammed declared that Allah decrees both good and evil. Hence when ever muhammed wanted anything bad to happen to bring good he would have a revelation from Allah. Like the time he declared who he compared to other men could and could not sleep with. That is why bubby that there are two sides to Islam if you want to call it that. Because muhammed said Allah decrees both good and evil.
You could argue well if there is only one creator than how can evil exist if he did not create it. In this sense you would have to say that God perhaps indirectly created evil. But that would be contrary to his nature. Can man make things today? Can man choose? Yes. So it was man that created evil? or did they just choose evil which was already created. See for adam and eve or anyone to have choice there must first be present options. If we way God is good but when we pull away from him we are less good. That too holds some argument. And this is confusing so rather than making up my own answer in 5mins time lol i'll conclude that i trust the Church's understanding on this as they have invested years of prayer and research.
Michael william James
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Mik3y
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Sunday, October 10, 2010 - 01:02 am: |
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Bubby maybe you should check out what tim staples or fr mitch pacwa have to say about Islam.
Michael william James
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Mik3y
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Sunday, October 10, 2010 - 01:01 am: |
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Interesting post. I would dismiss quite a few of these earlier genesis like stories because most if not all have incorrect perceptions of there been more than one God. As for the Bibles creation, those books left out are still accessible yes even on the vatican's website and one can see quiet clearly if they read these books exactly why they were left out. The focus of the bible is mans salvation and it must not contradict itself. Read the much raved about book of thomas and you will see just how greatly different it is to the other texts. There are reasons why these books were left out.
I don't like the idea of boxing the whole church when we talk about corruption. It is not a good nor accurate starting point. No one can deny there were members of church communities and authorities who abused power and relationships. But if we put everyone in a box we fail to do the truth any justice.
As for genesis nakedness does not imply that they were savages. It is indeed meant to be the complete opposite, innocence not ignorance. I also wouldnt be quick in calling the human race as any more civillised than before either. This is like calling the victorian era civillised and ignoring all the atrocities that were swept under a rug. The sons of adam do not imply original savagery because they came after the fall of man.
I'd also like to point out that any idea which implies religion is an opium for the masses has a really distorted view of what religion does for mankind.
That been said doctrine will not cause me to despise people or mistreat them. If anything it helps me understand better the frailty of man once fallen and just how much we really do need God.
Michael william James
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Grailknight777
Starlite Member
Username: Grailknight777
| | Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2010 - 08:37 pm: |
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This post in not directed as a reply to any one single person here, but rather as a more general clarification of what I'm talking about...
Fistly, there is a huge number of sadly "in the dark" and unenlightened individuals... who will claim to be of the mainstream Christians of the Evnangelical sort, and some even of the Catholic persuasion... who swear that the Apple symbolized sex. This is very silly and foolish, but it still is a falsehood that is out there, I am sad to report. For years, my grandmother... a Mathodist Reverend... was one such false believer. And in recent years, she came to realize that this is a ridiculous belief. So, when I try to explain to people the true meaning of the Apple, that is why I am explaining it. My notion of the Apple is the same as any enlightened person's: it stood for a kind of knowledge or wisdom. And the power that such knowledge and wisdom can convey. Either for good, or for evil. Mankind has done both with it.
Now, I am not saying God wanted mankind to be His slaves in Eden per se. I am saying His plan was to allow for man to rise above conditions in the Garden and become something more. Consider today, if any modern human being like you or I went to some severely, underdeveloped country and there we saw men and women walking around totally and compeltely naked, living off the land under the trees of the jungle like animals, and having no idea what was right or wrong. Might we pity them, and say that they need education as well as more sanitary living conditions? We would, and that is because we know the difference between civilized and savage. What if the ruler of their country forced them to live like this in order to keep them "innocent"? What may we as civilized people say about that! There is a difference between living a certain way because you want to, and living that way because you are kept in abject ignorance. Each person deserves the right to make up their own mind. That is "Free Will" as God intended it. But "Free Will" only came into play after the Fall from Eden. Before that, how much choice could Adam and Eve... or anyone who lacks the knowledge to change their fate... ever really claim to have? Very little, or even none. It is scientific fact that early man was savage, and became civilized. Not the other way around. God was not a dictator, as we know... so if He did not intend to keep man in ignorance, then it is clear He had some plan to elevate them beyond it. Perhaps His plan is exactly what transpired. That is what I am saying! The Eden Account differs in vast ways between two ancient cultures, as any historian, or scholar alive today will attest:
In the Hebrew Bible, Eden is looked on as a true paradise, but in the vastly earlier accounts as written on cuniform tablets in Sumeria and in Babylon, it was looked at as a prison where man toiled for God (or the gods). The Hebrew Bible reverses everything written by the Sumerians and Babylonians because of the bad history between the Israelites and the Babylonians. So, naturally the prison becomes a paradise and savagerey is made into innocence. You could, by such a line of logic, or illogic, make a case for nudists by saying they are merely trying to live like Adam and Eve. We know that to live like that is not a good or healthy thing because as a species we came to be far more enlightened than the first humans to walk this planet ever were. God is all-knowing, so why did He not teach Adam and Eve to be more civilized and less savage? Remember: Cain was the first ever to commit murder, and he was the son of Adam and Eve! Cain was proof of the savagery that was innate in early man. Why would any God want to keep people intellectually in the dark, as well as socially? The Hebrew Bible says this was becuase God loved Adam and Eve, but that is merely the opposite of the earlier Sumerian and Babylonian accounts that say the gods feared that man would rise up and refuse to serve them. The truth, clearly, is between the lines so to speak. Since no one people are ever entirely in the right or in the wrong. Law of averages! So, clearly, this makes a case for my point. Which is that God saw the conditions of early man and in mercy and compassion decided to lift them up and teach them a better way. How He accomplished this was a separate issue; one I've already discussed.
Before you or I can ever decide what is a false teaching or a true one though, we must first also consider some history. The Bible as we know it is a creation of the Council of Nicea who met in the reign of Emperor Constantine to decide what it is that should be included in the Bible and what it is that should be excluded. They even wanted to throw out the Book of Revelation at one point... but in the end they decided it was a flashy way to go out with a bang (and clearly it was divine in its' inspiration) so they included it at last. What was left out, however, was several vast and massive bodies of text called the Apocrypha, as well as the Gnostic Gospels. All of which were written at various points in time. Most of them after the four major gospels of the Bible as we know it today. However, some were vastly more ancient than expected... and could be traced to Christ's time and even earlier. (Some claim to be from Ancient Egypt, and others even from Ancient Greence! The older languages of many of the first Gnostic Gospels was Greek in nature rather than Aramaic or Latin.) It was a council of men, as human and fallible as you or I, who decided what was "True Gospel"... and everything they excluded they called "Heresy" or "False Teaching". Not at all because it was false or heretical, but rather because they didn't include it in their idea of what was true. So, technically... what is often considered "Gospel Truth" is not divine writ but the decision of a council of old men. Bishops for the most part, if I recall my history accurately. And their reasons were as political as they were religious in nature. I will explain how politics and religion were the order of those days in a moment. But first, we should consider that man in those days knew nothing or science, human nature, or anything else. They were guessing at a lot of things, and speculating more than trying to truly actively unravel the mysteries of Creation.
Bearing this in mind, Constantine did not have Christ's best interests at heart so much as his desire to see Rome unified under the new religion he was bent on creating, which became that of Roman Catholicism. That bit him in the heel, when the Pope wanted power and the Roman Empire split between East and West with the Pope ruling from Rome and Constantine ruling from Constantinople. This somewhat led to the early Byzantine era and the formation of the Byzantine Empire that was of Constantine's creation as a reaction to the Pope taking power in the west. So a lot of this was about keeping and maintaining power... and not at all about spiritual truth. Any and all truth was lost over time because of power struggeles and vain and selfish men. The same men... who burned innocent people at the stake to claim their land, money, and goods. And, to silence them for their disagreeing with the religious dogma of the day! So the new religion of the day thus encountered corruption and false teachings... but from within.
Now, since history teaches us the *pettiness* of the early Church... we cannot say the creation of the Bible as we know it today was a painless or divinely inspired process of "gentle revelation" like is commonly believed. And now, we come to the point in history when the Crusades began and Christian and Muslim both tried to convert by the sword. Neither side was in the right, but once two peoples do decide to mutually slaughter each other... might as well let them, since there is no stopping religious bigotry once it starts. I am not here to comment on the Crusades though... so we'll steer things back on track to the first notion we were talking about, and its' relevence.
Look at the Old Testament. Who gave the Israelite people the right to slaughter children, animals, and women in the name of God? Consider Jericho, Canaan, and later Babylon. Was everyone else evil and only the Israelites good? If you believe that then you might be narrow-minded and prejudiced. Rape, murder, and war were conducted as much in God's name falsely as in man's. God never gave the orders to commit the atrocities I read of in the Old Testament. Men did it in God's name to take power for themselves and attribute it to God. Christ stated that He would "not know" such people on Judgement Day because of their sins. The Temple fell to the Romans because of such decadent wickedness and complacency that was in the hearts of people who in those days claimed to be doing God's work but who were self-serving and vain rather than righteous. And every faith since and before has been guilty of such sins. Muslim, Christian, and even Pagan have in turn done their share of evils born of fanaticism. The mistake is when we believe fanaticism of any kind is good. The remedy is understanding and tolerance, but both have always been in short supply with man. Consider this, before becoming fanatical though:
Were you personally there, when God created man?
Can you say with conviction, that your way is the only true way to God? It is so easy to begin with despising a doctrine or idea that you don't agree with... and ending with hating every other person who doesn't agree with you. There is a fine line between zeal and delusion. Often, it is the most overzealous who cross that line and the name for what they become is "Fanatic". We must all be careful when speaking of matters of faith, lest we become the monsters we think that we fight against! I say this to all, because we are all human and prone to rash and very foolish behavior where religion, politics, and love are concerned.
But I digress... the point is simple: God created a universe. Nay, a multiverse! And all good, and all evil, have their origins in that single act of creation. Blame it on God, the Devil, or any being of your choice... but mankind must always evolve and better itself to survive. God came to see this point, and that is why man is civilized today rather than savage. Of course, God could change His mind and knock us back to the Stone Age were His intent solely to keep us "Innocent". But as I said in the beginning, God is not a dictator. God wants more from us. He wants us to be more responsible and worthy of the mantle of being His children. A father does not want to control, but to elighten and guide his children. Sadly, the Eden Account seems to contradict that notion, but if you consider the thought that God allowed man to fall in order to rise higher... it makes much more sense. So, as despicable as it may seem... the Devil was God's agent for that single change to take place. Some say that was a bad thing, and others say it was for the best. You say tomato, I say toma-toe. You say potato, I say pota-toe. In the end, we are in the very same place together in the very same period of time... contemplating the exact same lofty notions of spiritual "truths" and "falsehoods". All while God is laughing because only He knows the truth that we are trying to piece togther. If we knew all, then we would go mad. So we know all we are permitted to know... and the rest is mostly given to each individual as they can comprehand. That does not mean you or I are right or wrong. It is proof, rather... that all people are different as God intended it. So where are we in this debate?
Why did God create the Devil? was the original question, and the answer is simple: because good and evil are both a part of God's plan for the betterment of humanity. Without evil to define good, or good to define evil... what would life be? God is not simply good. God is not evil. God is neutral, because God is all things. What is the nature of true Omnipotence and Omniscience? Being one with all Creation. And that is God! If you turn over a rock, you can find Him there, and say: here, is my church! If you look at the sky, you can say: there, is my God! and both things are truth. Because God is in the rocks, the sky, and you and I as well. Unfortunately, so is the Devil because by the very nature of neutrality, good and evil must exist in perfect balanace in all things, lest chaos ensue. That truth can be found in Taoism, Buddhism, and several other eastern philosophies as well. It is human to seek one straight line to follow, but God works in circles, and cycles because they are eternal. A line must end, but God is endless. Think what it means to have an immortal soul. It means we too are endless, beyond just one cycle of time or one line's beginning, middle, or ending. In the west, there is a mistaken notion of eternity as being an eternal now. But it is not! It is an eternal yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Indeed, God did not create robots when He made man... and that is precisely why He set man free to chart our own coruse, become like Jesus, and aspire to be like God... not through pride, but through humility, generosity, and faith. If we temper all of our ambitions with those three principles, we follow God's plan. So, to ask why God created the Devil is to ask why would evil need to exist? It must exist, to balance good. That is why we must love our enemies and forgive them their sins. Because evil exists to define why we must be good. And if we look within, we'll see evil there too. We all have it, because as eternal beings created from pure neutrality... we comprise good and evil at the moment of our creation. How far we tip the balance during our lifetimes, is up to us until we earn the Heaven we deserve or the Hell that we weigh ourselves down until we fall into. That is the nature of Karma, and how God judges us. This, I feel, is an adequate answer to the original post and question... since it does not simply address the creation of the Devil but why such a being would need to be created as a part of this cycle of Creation and all previous cycles also.
In closing, mortal truth is always in flux whilst divine truth is unchanging. No living mortal can claim to know the totality of divine truth... since that lies solely with the True Creator. And no mortal mind can know the point at which the first Creation began and what cycle of time it was in. What if the Big Bang is but one of many, and the author of this chain of Creation was God? That weds science and faith nicely, but only if your need is to do so. Since mortal truth is in flux, and therefore subjective, it changes with each individual's needs. So in this example, we can see that not everyone has the same needs, in a spiritual sense. So, if we consider that then no mortal truth is false so long as it is not contrary to divine truth. So, how do we know if the truth we believe in is contrary to God's? If you are a good person, follow a reasonable set of morals and ethics, and are kind to others and not ever judgemental in your view of them... then you may say with conviction that you have not strayed from the path of divine truth. Jesus came to show us an example. No matter what your religion, you likely have a similar savior figure. Examples of such saviors have been with mankind since the dawn of time. Buddha, Krishna, Inanna, Osiris, Heracles, Balder, and countless others have walked the face of the Earth and will continue to do so, teaching, preaching, and being examples for all to follow. That is precisely why no one single religion owns the monopoly on truth. And, that in and of itself, is why it is so important in this day and age to keep and open mind to every odd possibility. Because mortal truth is changable, we must always be prepared to be enlightened still further than we our... no matter how deeply enlightened we believe ourselves to be. So let's try and factor that notion in whenever discussing anything spiritual henceforth. Only God knows everything... for the rest of us, life is truly an ongoing learning experience. --- Peace! 
(Message edited by grailknight777 on September 25, 2010)
(Message edited by grailknight777 on September 25, 2010) |
Pmbulo
Starlite Member
Username: Pmbulo
| | Posted on Friday, September 24, 2010 - 05:36 am: |
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I want to bring it to your attention Bubby that love covers all multitudes of resentment and sin. We are called to love our enemies and not to fight with tooth for tooth and eye for eye. I don’t have your answers but What I know is that we are not begged or requested but commanded to love our enemies. Unless you just want to disobey.
Shalom! Shalom! Ever-loving,
Potpher C. C. Mbulo. B.Eng (UNZA), MBA (ESAMI & MsM), R.Eng (IEEE)
+260-979-743434 and +260-955-996712
pmbulo@yahoo.com; pmbulo@zesco.co.zm
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Bubby
Starlite Member
Username: Bubby
| | Posted on Thursday, September 23, 2010 - 09:15 am: |
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Pmbulo,I pray for God to ease my concernment for the Islamic religion.I agree that hatred has no place in a true believers heart and at the same time I am concerned that there are no Christian churches or Bibles allowed in Saudi Arabia.
We use to have National Prayer Day in Washington D.C.,yet Obama stopped it.All religions would come together and pray for our country.Yet under Obama,it no longer happens.Why can't people answer my questions? Why are no Christian churches or Bibles allowed in Saudi Arabia or other Muslim countries,and why should we allow them to build mosques and bring their Koran into the USA?
They intend to build a mosque at ground zero as a victory monument for them. There are two parts to their Koran.One of peace and one of teaching them to kill all infidels that do not believe in their religion.The Media only looks at the peace part of their religion and refer to them the as the religion of peace.
Christians are putting their very life on the line when they talk to a Muslim about converting to Christianity,yet the opposite does not happen.
Why do they insist that theirs is the ONLY religion to adhere to? Why do they hate all non Muslims? Please provide the assurance that this is not true.
The Koran says its okay to lie to infidels,so can we non muslims believe them when they speak to us? I find it hard to believe someone that is trying to deceive us.
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Mik3y
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Thursday, September 23, 2010 - 04:53 am: |
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who is teaching that the apple was merely sex? The choice was for man to be His own God. It resembles our sins today how we think we know better than God and so we choose things over him, whether it be pre-marital sex, masterbation, homosexual acts, theft etc.
As for this idea that adam and eve were living in such poor condition, where does that come from? In the bible it is completely the opposite.
As for original sin. People have this huge misconception of what it actually is. Some people talk of it as if it is this black dark curse that cloaks us and makes us unable to do any good or to be close with God. This is not it at all. Man has fallen this is true, but it was of his choice. And just like then today it is our choice and we still fall short. Original sin has not made us incapable of doing good or from gaining salvation. It is a consequence of choosing something over God or trying to be a God over God.
I see Satan as an angel of light. God did not create sinful adam and eve, nor did he create the devil. Unless you want to use the argument well he didn't make us incapable of saying no to Him and building us as robots. That argument is stupid anyway because it would prove that God is not all loving.
I have no hate towards any people. Some religious doctrines and false teachings i do however despise.
Michael william James
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Bubby
Starlite Member
Username: Bubby
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 03, 2010 - 08:13 am: |
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"Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
8 "Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
9 Do you have an arm like God's,
and can your voice thunder like his?
10 Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor,
and clothe yourself in honor and majesty.
11 Unleash the fury of your wrath,
look at every proud man and bring him low,
12 look at every proud man and humble him,
crush the wicked where they stand.
13 Bury them all in the dust together;
shroud their faces in the grave.
14 Then I myself will admit to you
that your own right hand can save you.
15 "Look at the behemoth, [a]
which I made along with you
and which feeds on grass like an ox.
16 What strength he has in his loins,
what power in the muscles of his belly!
17 His tail [b] sways like a cedar;
the sinews of his thighs are close-knit.
18 His bones are tubes of bronze,
his limbs like rods of iron.
19 He ranks first among the works of God,
yet his Maker can approach him with his sword.
20 The hills bring him their produce,
and all the wild animals play nearby.
21 Under the lotus plants he lies,
hidden among the reeds in the marsh.
22 The lotuses conceal him in their shadow;
the poplars by the stream surround him.
23 When the river rages, he is not alarmed;
he is secure, though the Jordan should surge against his mouth.
24 Can anyone capture him by the eyes,
or trap him and pierce his nose ? |
Grailknight777
Starlite Member
Username: Grailknight777
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 03, 2010 - 12:22 am: |
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Truly... the being commonly referred to as "The Devil" *is* a necessary component of creation as God intended! Consider the truth behind the Book of Genesis: mankind (Adama and Eve) was living in primitive, perhaps even savage conditions by any standards. Their innocent nature makes it so that they don't realize how bad they have it in Eden, though. Bear in mind, however: God does not want us to suffer or be unhappy. So here is God's plan: "The Devil" offers Adama and Eve the knowledge to rise above their current status and build the very fundamentals of civilization. God only forbade this learning, because He knew the Devil would give it to mankind if He did forbid it. Thusly did God ensure that mankind would so rise from their primitve state to forever become something better. We must not forget: in the Old Testament, the so-called Devil was a servant of God who punished the wicked and also tested the righteous (as is most evident and obvious in the Book of Job). Some are simple-minded enough to believe the apple was a reference to mere sex, when in all reality the fruit of the "Tree of Knowledge" is naturally... divine knowledge, or as the Gnostic Christians call it: Gnosis. Sex is not what can make man like unto a god... only knowledge can do that, and divine knowledge in particular! Thus, when God created the Devil it was with all of that *and more* in mind. Mankind hates the Devil for giving Adama and Eve what in fact they wanted the most. Sometimes, when we do finally get what we want... we aren't happy with it at all. Therefore, had God, and not the Devil given the knowledge out... then, mankind would be blaming God for the suffering caused by their rise from barbarism. You see, knowledge is a double-edged sword. Good and evil. Yet, what is mankind without knowledge of what is good and what is evil? Merely an animal, and God wanted mankind to be more than just an animal. Knowing this, God's creation of the Devil gave mankind something else to hate other than God, ensuring human love for God and an innate hatred of the Devil. In that way, God was *quite* cunning and His planning is exceptionally admirable. When mankind matures enough as a species to be able to find balance between good and evil within themselves and creation itself, then all will be as God intended it from the beginning. But until then, people will continue to blame the Devil and sometimes even God for the evil they now know exists within them. But you cannnot be too angry with the messenger, if you know what I mean. If the Devil shines a spotlight on your wickedness, it is your own fault for being so wicked. Were you righteous instead, the Devil would not take notice of you in that way. So, while it is an innate part of man to blame the Devil... it is incorrect and foolish, when the evil people despise lies within and not without.
The Book of Genesis is a chronicle of mankind's maturity, and a glimpse into man's immaturity as well. Not everyone can see the totality of God's plan, but when you finally catch a glimpse of a single part of it... as with this case... it is amazing and makes you fully realize the extent to which God plans things out long-term rather than short-term. Have you ever wondered what the original "necessary evil" was? It was the birth of the Devil itself. And that is the truth.
Do you know why the Church will never teach you any of this? It is because they want you to go about your life believing that mankind is cursed with some ambiguous "original sin" without ever telling what that "sin" is. And when they try to explain it, they turn their minds to sex because human minds find comfort in the familiar rather than the abstract. Mankind's "original sin" was actually their inability to handle what they had learned. So God made a show of blaming the Devil while He is the one who cursed mankind with the burden of death. He did that to engender in man hatred for the Devil and loyalty to Himself. Had he not, then mankind would have truly been like unto gods, and no God could ever allow rivalry. Espcially since (as is stated in the Bible) God is a "jealous god" permitting no others before Him. So mankind has three options: Blame the Devil merely for being the messeneger. Blame God for cursing mankind with mortality. Or Blame your own immaturity and try to better yourself as a species and earn your immortality as Jesus promised. You see, because God is love He sent Jesus to give us our eternal life back. But, because once mortal it is a hard road to become divine again... we cannot abtain immortality in the flesh, only in the spirit (at least at this level of human technology anyway). Now, maybe at some point in the future we might find ways to resurrect the dead... or even become physically immortal (far-fetched, but bear with me here). God then has two options: If mankind is mature enough as a species to handle it, God will leave us to our destiny. Or, if mankind abuses their physical, technology-given immortality... He may well pull a Sodom and Gomorrah or an Atlantis and knock us back to the Stone Age again, just to teach us humility. That is God. But because God is love, He will not harm us if we prove to Him that we are worthy and no longer immature as a species. Do you know why God made us in His image? To show us that, with time, we too can be like unto Him. That is not the answer the Church will give you, and they will call that answer a "dangerous" one... but it is the truth. Jesus is man become God, as well as God become man. Did Jesus not say that we should follow in His footsteps and be like unto Him? He did! And so, consider for a moment: that is mankind's true, ultimate destiny! To evolve ourselves in mind, body, and spirit unto divinity. And none of it would be possible had God not created the Devil in the beginning. For, without evil to test us, how could be ever know if we are worthy or not?
That, my friend, is all why God did create the Devil. Not a simple answer... but it is correct nonetheless. Incidentally, I am Gnostic so a lot of my religious philosophy... is derived from my level of Gnosis (divine knowledge), rather than from any creed, dogma, or human-created notions.
God bless everyone; walk in the light, always!  |
Pmbulo
Starlite Member
Username: Pmbulo
| | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2010 - 03:59 am: |
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Bubby, what’s wrong with you my friend? You can’t see beyond your hate for Moslems? God is our all-loving father. He wants us to learn. We can’t learn if we brash aside enquire prejudgementally.
According to Aristotle, wisdom begins with a sense of wonder about the world. He is on record to state that most profound question a man can ask concerns the origin of the universe.
One of my friend when pressed with question:
“Why did God create the Devil???
Jokingly he said, “….give a dog a bad name and blame it!!!" LOL.
However you cannot just end at wondering why a dog is blamed for the bad name it was given. We have to find out why the owner of the dog gave it a bad name. Suppose giving a bad name to a dog compels or persuades other dogs to reverence the owner of all the dogs, then such an act was preconceived and done in good faith. We all ought to understand that God is the potter and we humans and the rest of creation are clay. Some pots were made for noble use while others were not. It was His idea to create objects of his wrath in order to make His objects of His grace (the elect) to see Gods grace?
Let me amplify my theology: You know God is love and love does not exist alone. It’s strange but it’s the truth though it sounds like blasphemy and heresy. God needs us to express His awesome love despite that He is omnipotent (all-powerful). To this end, he gave us a free will (to choose right or wrong). Free will would not be expressed without the existence of the devil. The devil is a “necessarily misgiving” else our free will would be rendered obsolete and useless. We humans without the devil would be like robots and no one prudent and sane can commune with robots. It’s only because we have a free will that we are capable of loving God back. Therefore God created the devil so that we can express freely our free will to love Him back. Give me a clap. Amen! and Amen! Thank you very much.
Shalom! Shalom! Ever-loving,
Potpher C. C. Mbulo. B.Eng (UNZA), MBA (ESAMI & MsM), R.Eng (IEEE)
+260-979-743434 and +260-955-996712
pmbulo@yahoo.com; pmbulo@zesco.co.zm
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Bubby
Starlite Member
Username: Bubby
| | Posted on Friday, July 16, 2010 - 11:21 am: |
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Maybe He created him to give all Muslims something to worry about..shalom |
Pmbulo
Starlite Member
Username: Pmbulo
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 14, 2010 - 04:48 am: |
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God created everything. When he finished lo it was good. He rested. If God created everything including the devil, why did He create him if God is foreknowing and all-knowing (omniscience)?
Shalom! Shalom! Ever-loving,
Potpher C. C. Mbulo. B.Eng (UNZA), MBA (ESAMI & MsM), R.Eng (IEEE)
+260-979-743434 and +260-955-996712
pmbulo@yahoo.com; pmbulo@zesco.co.zm
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