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  | Archive through July 27, 2005 | zaheer - uddin (Zahe | 10 | 07-27-05 12:59 am |
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Michael .P
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 03:35 am: | 
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Even faith the size of a mustard seed will move mountains my friend  and oh boy if i could grasp that much i would know.
Michael william James
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zaheer - uddin
Starlite Member
Username: Zaheer
| | Posted on Monday, March 06, 2006 - 11:55 pm: |
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i just came across this book " what did jesus really say. needed to share this with you.
http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/contents.html |
Queen (Nubian_soul)
Starlite Member
Username: Nubian_soul
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 10, 2006 - 11:13 am: |
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Michael I have a question for you. If adam and eve were the only people on earth how did their children kane and abel go out into the world and start a family of their own? I believe heavily in the Most High but the bible contradicts itself throughout the text. So do you believe in other worlds besides this one we reside in? Do you believe that there are other realms which are reachable in this plain if you only know how to get to those port-holes? We are all in his likeness and no Jesus didn't say he was God, the Most High, but instead a messenger of his word and law.
Michael if man makes mistakes and man converted the quran into the cursed language of english how do we know that man didn't twist the words of the Bible into what he wanted it to be?
Your Nubian Queen |
ALIANNE OUSSAMEUR (Alianne)
Starlite Member
Username: Alianne
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 01:19 pm: |
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Jennifer: you are very kind, thank you. I think if you read futher from John 10:30 to John 10:40 , you will notice that Jesus was not sayng that he was God but rather that he was in union of purpose with his Father. Do you know there is a Scripture where Jesus says exactly the same thing concerning himself and his apostles??? |
Jennifer Maxwell (Jennifer03801)
Starlite Member
Username: Jennifer03801
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 11:59 pm: |
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John 10:30,
“I and the Father are one.”
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ALIANNE OUSSAMEUR (Alianne)
Starlite Member
Username: Alianne
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 11:33 pm: |
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Michael:I am a very private person and I don't usually share my personal life but this time I am going to tell you that I am partially blind and cannot find it. SO, DO YOU THINK YOU CAN HELP ME OUT??? PLEASE MON AMI |
Michael .P (Mik3y)
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 08:54 pm: |
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Go back and look because im not lying and im really tired of you ignoring and denying such obvious things. I simply don't have the time for it, okay.
Michael william James
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ALIANNE OUSSAMEUR (Alianne)
Starlite Member
Username: Alianne
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 12:31 pm: |
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MICHAEL: I BEG TO DIFFER. Never once did you give me a scripture where Jesus himself said that he was God. |
Michael .P (Mik3y)
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 06:29 am: |
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Time and time again i have given you plenty of passages from the Bible where Jesus does make such claims to Divinity. The only truth your trying to unravel is that which i am with already. The real issue is you..i know the doctrines and the scriptures quite well for my age..what i don't know is you..and i'd like to really see you share more about yourself in these forums..it'd be nice to see character rather then regurgitated scripture and apologetics all the time.
Michael william James
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ALIANNE OUSSAMEUR (Alianne)
Starlite Member
Username: Alianne
| | Posted on Friday, August 19, 2005 - 06:34 pm: |
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Zaheer: As a true believer in the Bible, I must say you are correct. Jesus at no time said he was God and he always taught for his followers to worship God the Father just as his ancestors had been taught to worship only the Father. Once a person is taught something incorrect, it is very difficult to change their beliefs;the rreason why the scriptures promises Gehenna to those who mislead, especially the religious leaders. |
zaheer - uddin (Zaheer)
Starlite Member
Username: Zaheer
| | Posted on Friday, August 19, 2005 - 05:22 pm: |
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Michael i urge you to read my posts again--my intentions are not to attack your beliefs -- i only endeavour to unleash the truth-- if you would only read the posts with an open mind -- you would never miss the truth |
Michael .P (Mik3y)
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 10:01 pm: |
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See This about man thinking that there was just Jesus and he was God. The trinity, the Holy Father teachings etc give light To God been much more then a human. Who else can God pray to and ask for strength but himself. Who else would have the key to heaven but God? Jesus makes it quite clear in the Bible exactly what Authority he has on this earth and in heaven. Jesus wanted people to know that there was more than meets the eye..he did not ask for them to worship Him for who they thought he was..but said worship the Father..because this is who the people knew God as. Jesus clearly makes his divinity in the Bible known. Reading the whole Bible in all its context shows this more than ever that the Word was the way to God for the word is God.
Michael william James
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zaheer - uddin (Zaheer)
Starlite Member
Username: Zaheer
| | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 08:40 pm: |
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Is Jesus God ?
A logical and comprehensive method to unleash the truth
Step 1) The easiest way to answer the question is by looking at what Jesus himself has said, If Jesus had said "I am God", "I am God the Son " or "I am not God" then there would be no reason for this page to be online as the answer would have been very clear.
There isn't a clear statement throughout the Bible, in all its 66 volumes of the Protestant versions, or in the 73 volumes of the Roman Catholic versions, where Jesus said: “I am God”, "worship me" or "I am God the Son". People claiming that Jesus is not God are not worried to provide an illustration here and argue that it is very clear that Jesus is neither God nor a part of God since he didn't say so. On the other hand, people claiming that Jesus is God Almighty (God the Son) fail to provide an illustration as to why Jesus never claimed to be God Almighty. (ie, by saying "I am your God", "My father, the Holy Spirit and I are one God" or "God is Three in One and One in Three").
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Step 2) Read what Jesus has said about "God".
"I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me." [John 5:30]
▪ Is God's will different than Jesus' will ? Why isn't Jesus acting according to his own will ? Isn't he God (according to the claim) ?
"For I have not spoken on my own initiative; but the Father Himself who sent me, has given me commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak."[John 12: 49]
▪ If Jesus is God the Son, how can he accept commands from God the Father while "God the Son" and "God the Father" are the same along with "God the Spirit" (according to the claim) ? Doesn't this sound like someone giving commands to himself ?
"And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." [Mark 10:18]
▪ If Jesus is God, why did he mention clearly that he shouldn't be called good and only God is good ? (Churchmen will answer : he directed a question at the young man and challenged him to think about what he was really saying about Jesus). Does this make any sense? If I call you 'strong', and you reply by "Why are you calling me strong, only Mike is strong" would this give -in anyway- an indication for me to think if you and mike are the same or if you are strong ? Of course no. Furthermore, If Jesus was challenging the young man, why didn't Jesus mention that he is God after he heard the reply of the young man? By reading the reply of the young man, anyone would conclude that the he fully understood that Jesus is not God, If Jesus was God, why didn't he clarify this for him and say "I was challenging you, I myself am God and I am Good". There is more, in Verse 10:20, the young man calls Jesus 'Teacher', do you think this is a befitting name for God? Its so clear that the young man understood Jesus was not God.
"And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God." [Luke 6:12]
▪ Why is Jesus praying to God while he is God ? (according to the claim)
"But no one knows of that day and hour, not even the angels of heaven, but my Father only" [Mathew 24:36]
"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father" [Mark 13:32]
▪ If Jesus is God, how come his knowledge is limited (no one knows of that day and hour except the Father only) ? Can a God's knowledge be limited in anyway ?
"And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord" [Mark 12:29]
▪ If Jesus is God, why did he say "the Lord our God" ? Doesn't this explicitly point that he had a God ?
"You are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God” [John 8:31]
▪ If Jesus is God, this means he heard the truth from himself ?
"So Jesus answered them, 'My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me' " [John 7:16]
▪ To whom does the teachings belong ? To Jesus? No because he mentioned that its not his. To God ? No because Jesus is God (according to the claim). To whom then?
"At once the Spirit sent him out into the desert, and he was in the desert forty days, being tempted by Satan. He was with the wild animals, and angels attended him." [NIV, Mark 1:12-13]
▪ According to the verse, Jesus was being tempted by Satan. Can God (the creator of Satan and the universe) be tempted by Satan ?
"Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me." Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' " [NIV, Matthew 4:8-10]
▪ If Jesus is God, would the Devil promise him that he will give him the kingdoms of the world (while the ALL kingdoms of the world belong to God) ?
▪ If Jesus is God, shouldn't he have said "Thou shalt worship Me" instead of "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God" ?
"But I do not seek My glory; there is One who seeks and judges." [John 8:50]
"My Father is greater than I" [John 14:28]
▪ If Jesus is God, why did he clearly state that God is greater than him? (Churchmen will answer : The term greater refers to position, not nature, but the term 'better' refers to nature). As you can see the answer is vague. What about [John 10:29]:" My Father is greater than all " ? Was the comparison based on position or nature this time ? Furthermore, If Jesus is God, then his position must be the same position of God Almighty. It is to be noted also that the Nicene creed state that God the Father and God the Son are "co-equal". Yet, this verse makes it very clear that "the Father" is greater than Jesus.
The above verses conclude that Jesus clearly distinguished himself from God Almighty and states clearly that God is greater than him, used to command him, he was sent by God, he prayed to God and that he is acting only according to the will of God not to his own will. Not to mention, he was tempted by Satan, his teachings belong to the Father and not him, and he never knew when would the hour come.
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Step 3) Analyze and understand the behaviors and characteristics of Jesus in the Gospels.
The Gospels state that Jesus went through a great deal of human suffering. He was arrested by the Jews. He made an effort to run away in order to save himself. He was powerless, and defenseless; he was humiliated by the soldiers, then crucified and he cried aloud before his death, “O My God why have you forsaken me”. Jesus was shrouded and buried similar to any human being. Jesus used to eat, drink, get tired, rest and sleep. He experienced hunger, thirst, sadness, happiness, anger, pain, sorrow, fear, he was tempted by the devil similar to all human beings. There are innumerable verses in all the Gospels that prove Jesus was a mere human being, possessing all the human characteristics.
People claiming that Jesus is God often face the following questions :
▪ If Jesus is God, Why does he have all the characteristics of human beings ? How can the perfect God possess the attributes of a human being with all of his liabilities to imperfections, deficiencies and weaknesses?
▪ Why would a God with an endless power need to eat, drink and go to a bathroom. Churchmen say yes its normal because he was in the "Human" form. This makes no sense actually and changes nothing. Even if he is a God in the human form, which is impossible, he is still a God! He must be different from his creatures. The idea that a God, to whom people shall pray and praise, would need to visit a bathroom every now and then is just unacceptable. “And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.” [Luke 22:43], it would be hard to believe that an angel came to strengthen God Almighty, it would also be hard to believe that God Almighty, the All-Wise, the All-Powerful "grew in wisdom" [Luke 2:52]
▪ If Jesus created Adam (the father of all human beings) and the universe, if he is capable of doing so, can't he at least give up the basic human needs (eating, drinking, sleeping) ?
▪ Some may argue that God came to earth in human form so that we won't say "He doesn't understand us or feel us". Does God, the All-Knowing, the All-Powerful, who created our souls need to come down to earth as a 'human' to know how we are doing and how we feel ?
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Step 4) Analyze and understand the concept of "Trinity" and its reference in the Gospels.
Trinity or the "Mystery of the mysteries" can be defined as : The union of three divine persons (or hypostases), the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in one divinity, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three Persons (or hypostases as to individuality). The definition of the trinity was established after Jesus left earth by at least 200 years. The word trinity itself is not included in the Gospels.
The following verse has been used sometime to prove the Trinity: "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one." [1 John 5:7 (King James Version)]. Yet, this verse has been removed from the Revised Standard Version of the Bible (RSV) by thirty two Christian scholars of the highest eminence backed by fifty cooperating Christian denominations, they tell us that it was an interpolation, a later addition to the text of the statement. The RSV goes back to the "most ancient manuscripts".
According to Bruce Metzger, a world renowned authority on the manuscripts and transmission of the Greek New Testament (NT) text, the term 'trinity' is not in the Bible and it cannot be clearly detected from the scripture: " Because the Trinity is such an important part of later Christian doctrine, it is striking that the term does not appear in the NT. Likewise the developed concept of three coequal partners in the Godhead found in later creedal formulations cannot be clearly detected within the confines of the canon" (Oxford Companion to the Bible, ed. Bruce Metzger, OUP, 1993, p. 782).
Also, consider the following testimonies:
"Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament" (The New Encyclopedia Britannica, 1985, Vol. 11, p. 928).
"Theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity" (The Encyclopedia of Religion, ed. Mircea Eliade, Macmillan Publishing Company, 1987, Vol. 15, p. 54).
"The doctrine of the Trinity is not taught in the Old Testament" (New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. XIV, p. 306).
All the prophets preceding Jesus mentioned clearly that there is only one God. They never said God Almighty is a three-in-one God. Jesus didn't come to abolish the law or the prophets "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. " [Matthew 5:17]. When he was asked about the first commandment he said "The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord" [Mark 12:29]. He didn't say God is Three-in-one or I am God.
Trinity is just unexplainable. Churchmen attempted to explain it without any success; so they called it "the mystery of mysteries". Trinity was not established on any logical proofs or evidences. It is against logic and man’s comprehension. God Almighty is the most merciful, he would not confuse us by such a concept. "For God is not the author of confusion but of peace."[Corinthians 14:33].
For testimonies from reputable Christian standard authorities regarding Trinity, Please Click here
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Step 5) Analyze and understand the term "Son of God"
What does the term "Son of God" that appears in both, the Old and New Testaments mean? Is Jesus the only "Son of God" ?
We read in the Bible that:
- Adam is the son of God, Luke[3:38]
- Suleiman is the son of God, Samuel[7:13-14]
- Jacob is the son of God, Exodus[4:22]
- Ephraim is God's firstborn, Jeremiah[31:9]
- Other people are "Sons of God", Job[38:7] : "Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD".
Does this mean that Adam, Suleiman, Jajob, Ephraim and "other people" are sons of God ? "Son of God" in the language of the Jewish was a term used to describe a loyal servant of God Almighty. Jesus himself is quoted as saying, "Blessed are the peace-makers for they shall be called sons of God." [Matthew 5:9]
One can argue that the term given to Jesus in some versions of the Bible is different, that is, "the begotten son of God". Yet, The word begotten has been removed from the Revised Standard Version of the Bible (that goes to the "most-ancient" manuscripts) by highly esteemed 32 Christian Biblical scholars backed by fifty cooperating Christian denominations, they tell us (in the RSV) that through their study of recently discovered manuscripts of the Bible they have found many "grave and serious defects" in the King James Version of the Bible. You can verify this by reading the first few pages of the RSV, PREFACE page iii and iv.
In the language of the Jews. the word "son" has a metaphoric meaning as well. Thus, the term "son of God" is used in the Bible, both Old and New Testaments to signify good, righteous people .
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Step 6) Analyze and understand the idea of God sacrificing his Son to save us.
The Idea : "God has sent Jesus to our world and sacrificed him (his only son) so that we, who put our faith in His Son, will have our sins forgiven".
Before analyzing the idea, what is "sacrificing" anyway ? Sacrifice is defined as: Forfeiture of something highly valued for the sake of one considered to have a greater value or claim. Does God Almighty, the Master, the All-Knowing need to sacrifice in order to have a greater value or claim? Aren't the heavens, earth and whole universe his property and under his full control ?
If God had wanted to save us, couldn’t He have done that without sacrificing Jesus (his Son) and He is the Master and All Powerful? Or is it that he wanted to show us how much he loved us? Couldn't there be a better way then giving away his (only) Son? Isn't this Son God anyway (According to Trinity) ? So this means God is giving away (sacrificing) God ? No wonder why trinity, which was established after Jesus left earth by a long period, was named the mystery of mysteries.
We know that God is Almighty; He is the owner of universe; to whom did He sacrifice Jesus? And what He would get in return of His sacrifice while every thing in the earth and heavens is His? A real sacrifice is when you can’t get back what you have offered, so what is the meaning of such a sacrifice if God could recover his offering, Jesus his son, according to the current Christians decree?
If God had a single Son (which is somehow God too) and he sacrificed him, Can't he get another son? to whom did he sacrifice the son anyway while he can get him back whenever he wishes? Isn't he the All Powerful.. Why would God need a son in the first place? needing a son or a daughter is a human need. Now if Jesus was God or a divine part united with the God, why could he not save himself from this persecution, and punish them for such a heretical act ? Because this was the will of God the Father to show us that he is merciful and that he loves us ? but then again, Isn't God the Father and God the Son the same according to Trinity ? God the Son is dead and God the Father is alive? God the Son is God and at the same time the Father of the Son and the Son of the Father ? If God the Son Died, this means that God Died - then God (that is still dead) raised God from the dead ? Too many unanswered questions which contradict basic logic, their best answer was : "This is the Mystery of the mysteries, you just have to believe it.". Yes sometimes we have to accept religion regulations the way they are and believe in them, but the major concepts of a religion must be clear and capable of being interpreted by the human mind in order to determine what is right and what is wrong, or atleast what could be right and what could be wrong. God almighty does not want to puzzle us and let us dive into mysteries and vague thoughts. He is the Most Merciful, the All-Knowing. The true old Christianity (original teachings of Jesus) calls for monotheism and states that Jesus was a prophet, not God Almighty.
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Conclusion
I) Jesus was a Prophet similar to the prophets preceding him.
II) God Almighty is one and only, and not a Three-In-One/One-In-Three God.
Through the above steps, we conclude that Jesus was a prophet sent from God. He was a human being, he used to eat, drink and sleep. Jesus preached the same message of the prophets before him which is monotheism. Jesus’ message was a continuation and an affirmation of the previous messages before him as he stressed in the Bible that he did not come to break the Law (Abraham, Moses and all previous prophets made it clear that there is only one God). Trinity is a clear deviation from the original message of Jesus; it is not fitting to God and its against His perfection. The old Testaments which calls for monotheism as the only accepted faith is in total contradiction with current the Christian faith.
God Almighty is one and only. He has no daughter and has no son, he is the All-Powerful All-Knowing and Most Merciful. Jesus was a prophet of God and neither God nor his begotten son. This conclusion has no conflicts, easy to understand, free of mysteries and very logical. Islam (continuation of Jesus' original teachings) teaches those concepts.
The foundation of the Islamic faith is belief in the Oneness of Almighty God - the God of Abraham, Noah, Moses and Jesus. Islam teaches that a pure belief in One God is intuitive in human beings and thus fulfills the natural inclination of the soul. As such, Islam's concept of God is straightforward, unambiguous and easy to understand. Islam teaches that the hearts, minds and souls of human beings are fitting receptacles for clear divine revelation, and that God's revelations to man are not clouded by self-contradictory mysteries or irrational ideas. As such, Islam teaches that even though God cannot be fully comprehended and grasped by our finite human minds, He also does not expect us to accept absurd or demonstrably false beliefs about Him. According to the teachings of Islam, Almighty God is absolutely One and His Oneness should never be compromised by associating partners with Him - neither in worship nor in belief. Due to this, Muslims are required to maintain a direct relationship with God, and therefore all intermediaries are absolutely forbidden. The God that Muslims worship is the same God that Abraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus and the rest of Prophets used to worship. Muslims believe in Jesus and love him, in fact, whenever they say Jesus, they add the phrase "Peace be upon him". Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet just like all the prophets preceding him. And that he too, worshiped and believed in one God only. Muslims believe that the Christian gospels and bibles have been modified and do not contain all the true original teachings of Jesus. But that does not mean that the verses of current gospels are all modified. No, Muslims believe that there are alot of correct verses. For instance in [Mark 12:29] : "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord". Jesus, peace be upon him, preached monotheism not a vague mystery. Jesus' miracles do not make him God, all the prophets of God had miracles.
Bruce Metzger, a world renowned authority on the manuscripts and transmission of the Greek New Testament (NT) text, in his book "The Canon Of The New Testament" concludes after studying the Apostolic Fathers that early christians very rarely regarded the NT as scripture:
"For early Jewish Christians the Bible consisted of the Old Testament and some Jewish apocryphal literature. Along with this written authority went traditions, chiefly oral, of sayings attributed to Jesus. On the other hand, authors who belonged to the 'Hellenistic Wing' of the Church refer more frequently to writings that later came to be included in the New Testament. At the same time, however, they very rarely regarded such documents as 'Scripture'." [pp. 72]
Another clear statement from an authentic source that early christians did not consider the NT as scripture :
"The original copies of the NT books have, of course, long since disappeared. This fact should not cause surprise. In the first place, they were written on papyrus, a very fragile and perishable material. In the second place, and probably of even more importance, the original copies of the NT books were not looked upon as scripture by those of the early Christian communities." [George Arthur Buttrick (Ed.), The Interpreter's Dictionary Of The Bible, Volume 1, pp. 599 (Under Text, NT).]
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The following verses were taken from the Holy Quran (their meanings have been translated from arabic to english) which was revealed to Prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him) who came after Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him). The term Allah in Arabic means "God", It is not a different God, Its the same God that Noah, Moses, Jesus prayed for. The Holy Quran was revealed to prophet Mohammed in Arabic, it is the word of God, it was not authored by a human being. It is not dedicated only for Arabs, but instead, for all Mankind, Muslims and non-Muslims.
Jesus (pbuh) , a Prophet from God
"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
" (Quran:4/171)
"Jesus the son of Mary was no more than a Messenger, as many messengers passed before him. His mother was a truthful woman. They both had to eat their food, see how Allah makes his signs clear to them yet see in what way they are deluded away from the truth." (Quran: 5/75)
"And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah." (Quran:5/46)
God Almighty, the one and only
"Allah! There is no god but He, the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) Before or After or Behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory)." (Quran:2/255)
Logical punishment/reward
"Shall We treat those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, the same as those who do mischief on earth? Shall We treat those who guard against evil, the same as those who turn aside from the right?" (Quran:28/38)
God Almighty, the Most-Merciful
"Say: 'O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.'" (Quran:39/53)
The true Christians, followers of Jesus
"And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book (Jews and Christians), those who believe in Allah, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to Allah: they will not sell the Signs of Allah for a miserable gain! for them is a reward with their Lord, and Allah is swift in account." (Quran:3/199)
The Holy Quran, A Holy Book for all mankind
"O mankind! verily there hath come to you a convincing proof from your Lord: For We have sent unto you a light (that is) manifest." (Quran:4/174)
Prophet Mohammed, a Prophet for all mankind
"We sent thee not, but as a Mercy for all creatures." (Quran:21/107)
Prophet Mohammed, a Prophet for all mankind
"Every Prophet used to be sent to his nation only but I have been sent to all mankind."
(Translation of Sahih Bukhari "A Book of the Prophet's saying", Volume 1, Book 7, Number 331)
"It is a Revelation sent down by (Him), the Exalted in Might, Most Merciful" [Holy Quran 36:5]
The word "Muslim" means one who submits to the will of God, regardless of their race, nationality or ethnic background. Being a Muslim entails willful submission and active obedience to God, and living in accordance with His message. Some people mistakenly believe that Islam is just a religion for Arabs, but nothing could be further from the truth. Not only are there converts to Islam in every corner of the world, especially in England and America, but by taking a look at the Muslim World from Bosnia to Nigeria, and from Indonesia to Morocco, one can clearly see that Muslims come from many various races, ethnic groups and nationalities. It is also interesting to note that in actuality, more than 80% of all Muslims are not Arabs.
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zaheer - uddin (Zaheer)
Starlite Member
Username: Zaheer
| | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 08:19 pm: |
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Many people tell us "but the Bible clearly says that Jesus is the Son of God. How can you say that Jesus is not God's only begotten son when Jesus says it so clearly in black and white in the Bible?" Well, first of all, as seen in the previous section, we first need to know the language of his people, the language of the Jews to whom he was speaking. Let us see how they understood this proclamation.
Let us begin by asking: How many sons does the Bible tell us that God Almighty has?
Jacob is God's son and firstborn: "Israel is my son, even my firstborn" Exodus 4:22.
Solomon is God's son "He shall build an house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son": 2 Samuel 7:13-14.
Ephraim is God's firstborn: "for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn" Jeremiah 31:9 (who is God's firstborn? Israel or Ephraim?).
Adam is the son of God "Adam, which was the son of God" Luke 3:38.
Common people (you and me) are the sons of God:
"Ye are the children of the LORD your God" Deuteronomy 14:1.
"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God" Romans 8:14.
"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name" John 1:12.
"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" Philippians 2:15.
"Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: ... now are we the sons of God" 1 John 3:1-2.
"When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" Job 38:7.
"Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD," Job 2:1.
"Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD," Job 1:6.
"when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men," Genesis 6:4.
"That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair" Genesis 6:2
As we can see, the use of the term "son of God" when describing normal human beings was not at all an uncommon practice among Jesus' people.
Well then, was Jesus the only begotten son of God?
Read Psalms 2:7 : "I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me (King David, King), Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee"
Indeed, the Jews are even referred to as much more than this in the Bible, and this is indeed the very trait which Jesus (pbuh) held against them. When the Jews picked up stones to stone Jesus (pbuh) he defended himself with the following words
"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, 'I said, Ye are gods?' If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken..." John 10:34:
(he was referring to Psalms 82:6 "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High..") As we can see from these and many other verses like them, "son of God" in the language of the Jews was a very innocent term used to describe a loyal servant of God. Whether the translators and editors chose to write it as "Son of God" (with a capital S) in reference to Jesus and "son of God" (with a small S) in reference to everyone else does not diminish the fact that in the original language, both cases are exactly the same. Are we beginning to see what drove the most learned men of the Anglican Church to recognize the truth? But let us move on.
Grolier's encyclopedia, under the heading "Jesus Christ," says:
"During his earthly life Jesus was addressed as rabbi and was regarded as a prophet. Some of his words, too, place him in the category of sage. A title of respect for a rabbi would be "my Lord." Already before Easter his followers, impressed by his authority, would mean something more than usual when they addressed him as "my Lord.".... it is unlikely that the title "Son of David" was ascribed to him or accepted by him during his earthly ministry. "Son of God," in former times a title of the Hebrew kings (Psalms 2:7), was first adopted in the post-Easter church as an equivalent of Messiah and had no metaphysical connotations (Romans 1:4). Jesus was conscious of a unique filial relationship with God, but it is uncertain whether the Father/Son language (Mark 18:32; Matt. 11:25-27 par.; John passim) goes back to Jesus himself" .
There seems to be only two places in the Bible where Jesus (pbuh) refers to himself as "son of God." They are in John chapters 5 and 11. Hastings in "The dictionary of the Bible" says: "Whether Jesus used it of himself is doubtful." Regardless, we have already seen what is meant by this innocent title. However, Jesus is referred to as the "son of Man" (literally: "Human being") 81 times in the books of the Bible. In the Gospel of Barnabas, we are told that Jesus (pbuh) knew that mankind would make him a god after his departure and severely cautioned his followers from having anything to do with such people.
Jesus was not the son of a human man (according to both the Bible and the Qur'an). However, we find him constantly saying "I am the son of man." Why?. It was because in the language of the Jews, that is how you say "I am a human being."
What was he trying to tell us by constantly repeating and emphasizing to us throughout the New Testament "I am a human being," "I am a human being," "I am a human being"?. What had he foreseen? Think about it!.
Do Christians emphasize this aspect of Jesus? The New Testament Greek word translated as "son" are "pias" and "paida" which mean "servant," or "son in the sense of servant." These are translated to "son" in reference to Jesus and "servant" in reference to all others in some translations of the Bible (see below). As we are beginning to see, one of the most fundamental reasons why Jesus (pbuh) is considered God is due to extensive mistranslation. We shall see more and more examples of this throughout this book.
Islam teaches that Jesus (pbuh) was a human being, not a God. Jesus (peace be upon him) continually emphasized this to his followers throughout his mission. The Gospel of Barnabas also affirms this fact. Once again, Grolier's encyclopedia says:
"...Most problematical of all is the title "Son of Man." This is the only title used repeatedly by Jesus as a self-designation, and there is no clear evidence that it was used as a title of majesty by the post-Easter church. Hence it is held by many to be authentic, since it passes the criterion of dissimilarity."
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Michael .P (Mik3y)
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 09:39 pm: |
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You just really enjoy throwing in bits of your own opinion[not factual] and mix it up with the truth. See the Trinity teaching is from the Bible, thats the first problem with your accusation that it isn't. With this kind of logic if we read the Bible and put what God has taught us from the Bible into action it is manly and not divine teaching at all. The Catholic church not only has a reliable text but a strong tradition of people who lived the word before the Book was even written..which was a far cry from when your "holy" Koran was written. Jesus Himself the Son in the Father, Father in the Son Founded the Church not man, what He did however was leave men in power of the church under Him..read [matt 28] The disciples are clearly given the authority from God to preach the word to man. And Jesus makes it quite obvious when He uses the word "I" Jesus was a devout Jew and bear false witness is something He would never do. Jesus did not want to be worshiped as a mere human amoungst man. But a divine figure He wanted people to Worship who Him, the Son was in the Father, and the Father in the Son, God!
Michael william James
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zaheer - uddin (Zaheer)
Starlite Member
Username: Zaheer
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 05:58 pm: |
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thanks ALLIANE this is what the verse means
Allah tells us about the five Mighty Messengers with strong resolve and the other Prophets, how He took a covenant from them to establish the religion of Allah and convey His Message, and to cooperate and support one another, as Allah says:
[æóÅöÐú ÃóÎóÐó Çááøóåõ ãöíËóÜÞó ÇáäøóÈöíøöíúäó áóãó ÁóÇÊóíúÊõßõã ãøöä ßöÊóÜÈò æóÍößúãóÉò Ëõãøó ÌóÂÁóßõãú ÑóÓõæáñ ãøõÕóÏøöÞñ áøöãóÇ ãóÚóßõãú áóÊõÄúãöäõäøó Èöåö æóáóÊóäÕõÑõäøóåõ ÞóÇáó ÁóÃóÞúÑóÑúÊõãú æóÃóÎóÐúÊõãú Úóáóì Ðáößõãú ÅöÕúÑöì ÞóÇáõæÇú ÃóÞúÑóÑúäóÇ ÞóÇáó ÝóÇÔúåóÏõæÇú æóÃóäóÇú ãóÚóßõãú ãøöäó ÇáÔøóÜåöÏöíäó ]
(And when Allah took the covenant of the Prophets, saying: "Take whatever I gave you from the Book and Hikmah, and afterwards there will come to you a Messenger confirming what is with you; you must, then, believe in him and help him.'' Allah said: "Do you agree, and will you take up My covenant'' They said: "We agree.'' He said: "Then bear witness; and I am with you among the witnesses.'') (3:81) This covenant was taken from them after their missions started. Elsewhere in the Qur'an, Allah mentions five by name, and these are the Mighty Messengers with strong resolve. They are also mentioned by name in this Ayah and in the Ayah:
[ÔóÑóÚó áóßõã ãøöäó ÇáöÏöíäö ãóÇ æóÕøóì Èöåö äõæÍÇð æóÇáøóÐöì ÃóæúÍóíúäó Åöáóíúßó æóãóÇ æóÕøóíúäóÇ Èöåö ÅöÈúÑóÇåöíãó æóãõæÓóì æóÚöíÓóì Ãóäú ÃóÞöíãõæÇú ÇáÏøöíäó æóáÇó ÊóÊóÝóÑøóÞõæÇú Ýöíåö]
(He (Allah) has ordained for you the same religion which He ordained for Nuh, and that which We have revealed to you, and that which We ordained for Ibrahim, Musa and `Isa saying you should establish religion and make no divisions in it.) (42:13) This is the covenant which Allah took from them, as He says:
[æóÅöÐú ÃóÎóÐúäóÇ ãöäó ÇáäøóÈöíøöíúäó ãöíËóÇÞóåõãú æóãöäúßó æóãöä äøõæÍò æóÅöÈúÑóåöíãó æóãõæÓóì æóÚöíÓóì ÇÈúäö ãóÑúíóãó]
(And when We took from the Prophets their covenant, and from you, and from Nuh, Ibrahim, Musa, and `Isa son of Maryam.) This Ayah begins with the last Prophet, as a token of respect, may the blessings of Allah be upon him, then the names of the other Prophets are given in order, may the blessings of Allah be upon them. Ibn `Abbas said: "The strong covenant is Al-`Ahd (the covenant).
[áøöíóÓúÃóáó ÇáÕøóÜÏöÞöíäó Úóä ÕöÏúÞöåöãú]
(That He may ask the truthful about their truth.) Mujahid said: "This refers to, those who convey the Message from the Messengers.''
[æóÃóÚóÏøó áöáúßóÜÝöÑöíäó]
(And He has prepared for the disbelievers) i.e., among their nations,
[ÚóÐóÇÈÇð ÃóáöíãÇð]
(a painful torment.) i.e., agonizing. We bear witness that the Messengers did indeed convey the Message of their Lord and advised their nations, and that they clearly showed them the truth in which there is no confusion, doubt or ambiguity, even though they were rejected by the ignorant, stubborn and rebellious wrongdoers. What the Messengers brought is the truth, and whoever opposes them is misguided. As the people of Paradise will say:
[áóÞóÏú ÌóÂÁóÊú ÑõÓõáõ ÑóÈøöäóÇ ÈöÇáúÍóÞøö]
(Indeed, the Messengers of our Lord did come with the truth.) (7:43)
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=33&tid=41314 |
ALIANNE OUSSAMEUR (Alianne)
Starlite Member
Username: Alianne
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 11:36 pm: |
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ZAHEER COULD YOU PLEASE EXPLAIN THE FULL IMPLICATION OF THIS VERSE. THANK YOU
" And remember We took from the Prophets their Covenant: As from thee: from Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus the son of Mary: We took from them a solemn covenant"
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ALIANNE OUSSAMEUR (Alianne)
Starlite Member
Username: Alianne
| | Posted on Saturday, July 30, 2005 - 08:08 am: |
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MICHAEL, THIS IS A DESCRIPTION OF JESUS AS FOUND IN THE GOSPELS OF THE BIBLE IF I AM MISTAKEN, PLEASE FEEL FREE TO CORRECT ME BY SHOWING ME THE SCRIPTURES THAT CONTRADICT WHAT I HAVE JUST WRITTEN. JESUS WAS AS BIG A MIRACLE AS HIS BIRTH.
God never had a beginning nor was he ever seen by any man. He gave the title of "Master Worker" to his first born, begotten Son who was taught by Him for centuries in heaven before transferring his life by Holy Spirit to the womb of the Virgin Mary. God does have a name JHWH, it was mentioned 8 times in the TEN COMMANDEMENTS and close to 7 thousand times in the Bible. None, today, has an excuse to be mislead as to knowing who the true God is and not to give Him only exclusive devotion. Our Creator is the same yesterday as He is today; He has not changed from a one God to a three in one God. Ask a practicing Jew if he ever worshipped a triune god!!! This is an addition to the teachings of the Bible brought about in the 4th century by misguided and unknowledgeable men; not a teaching of Jesus. God the Father is the most High and most powerful over all of the earth and His Holy Spirit is His active force whom he gives to whom He pleases to carry out His purpose. He sent His Son to the earth to make his will known and to give his life as a ransom for many. God is not lower than the angels and never has he had to learn obedience. God does not have a head, He is not in second place to anyone and He can do all things. The Bible says God is completely different from the Son ,Christ Jesus, who is not to be worshipped but to be respected by all as God's Mediator between Him and man. |
Michael .P (Mik3y)
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Thursday, July 28, 2005 - 11:50 am: |
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Right so not all of The Koran or the Bible is coherant with Science and its discoveries. It was not the only miracle of birth either. Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary. Which is also as big if not a bigger miracle.
Michael william James
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zaheer - uddin (Zaheer)
Starlite Member
Username: Zaheer
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 27, 2005 - 09:39 am: |
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Michael Adam was created in the most unusual of circumstances and his birth is the biggest miracle as he was born without the aid of either of the parents. He was born by the will of God-- Once God created Adam and eve he created a system of reproduction-- a natural law for the propogation of human species -- Science is only studying and discovering what God has created.
The human foetus indeed looks like a leech in its original stages which is what the Quran states, there is no conflict-- The Quran first describes the birth of Adam that is the origin of man how he was created from dust by the will of God, next it describes the phases of of our creation insdie the womb. |
Michael .P (Mik3y)
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 27, 2005 - 08:34 am: |
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Im aware of this. What i am asking is how can your earlier point can be any valid. You attested to Religion been in sync with Science. Making man from dust etc is far from been in sync with Science unlike the teaching of the leech like subject.
Michael william James
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ALIANNE OUSSAMEUR (Alianne)
Starlite Member
Username: Alianne
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 27, 2005 - 07:45 am: |
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MICHAEL:If you read the Bible in the Book of Genesis you will see where it says that man was formed from the dust of the ground and that God then breathed in the breath of life. |
Michael .P (Mik3y)
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 27, 2005 - 01:30 am: |
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But making a man from dust applies to no science at all. Which i believe was your point of discussion about the Koran and Islamic teachings always been of reason and known to man. I don't think any scientist believes man could be made from dust. So how is your previous point valid?
Michael william James
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