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zaheer - uddin (Zaheer)
Starlite Member
Username: Zaheer
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 10:54 am: | 
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Thanks Michael-- the verse is self explanatory |
Michael .P (Mik3y)
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 12:42 am: |
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I believe you've mis-read my posts. I have said that the Koran mentions the Trinity..and has a teaching in it about the Trinity..But i never said that the Koran teaches the Trinity theory as correct. If anything the Koran dismisses it even in more or less words calls it rubbish.. Doesn't really give proof why except for heresay and the trinity talked about is not even the Trinity the church believes in.
Michael william James
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zaheer - uddin (Zaheer)
Starlite Member
Username: Zaheer
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 08:13 pm: |
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Hi Michael i was doing throgh the thread when i came across your post where you stated that the Quran teaches about Trinity-- i would really appreciate it if you could poiny out the exact chapter and verse,
The Quran rejects the concept of Trinity in the following passage;
171. O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not 'Three (Trinity)' : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is One God. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
172. Christ disdaineth not to serve and worship Allah, nor do the angels, those nearest (to Allah): those who disdain His worship and are arrogant,-He will gather them all together unto Himself to (answer).
173. But to those who believe and do deeds of righteousness, He will give their (due) rewards,- and more, out of His bounty: But those who are disdainful and arrogant, He will punish with a grievous chastisement; Nor will they find, besides Allah, any to protect or help them.
( Quran;Chap 4. V171-173)
following is a compilation of the verses concerning Jesus in the QuranJESUS IN THE QURAN
In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
The first mention of Jesus is mentioned very early on in the Quran in the following passage;
We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you a messenger with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!
( Quran; Chap 2 verse87)
The following passage reminds us of the line of messengers of which jesus was a part , after mentioning Abraham, it continues;
. We gave him Isaac and Jacob: all (three) We guided: and before him, We guided Noah, and among his progeny, David, Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses, and Aaron: thus do We reward those who do good:
85. And Zakariya and John, and Jesus and Elias: all in the ranks of the Righteous:
86. And Ismail and Elisha, and Jonah, and Lot: and to all We gave favor above the(other) nations( Chap 6. V 84-86)
And the list of messengers is by no means complete as the following passage states ;
----. Of some messengers We have already told thee the story; of others We have not;- and to Moses Allah spoke direct;-( Quran;Chap 4. V 164)
Infact Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him ) said that Jesus was one of the one hundred and twenty four thousand prophets, between whom there is no cause for conflict or argument. Allah tells his messengers in one passage of the Quran;
84. Say: 'We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the Prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islám).'
( Quran;Chap 3 V 84)
All prophets were sent with the same message as mentioned in the following passage;
7. And remember We took from the Prophets their Covenant: As from thee: from Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus the son of Mary: We took from them a solemn covenant:
8. That (Allah) may question the Truthful about their truthfulness: and He has prepared for the Unbelievers a grievous Penalty.(Quran; Chap 33 V. 7-8)
51. O ye messengers! Enjoy (all) things good and pure, and work righteousness: for I am well-acquainted with (all) that ye do.
52. And verily this Ummah of yours is a single Ummah, and I am your Lord and Cherisher: therefore fear Me (and no other
(Quran;Chap 23 V.51-52)
13. The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah - the which We have sent by inspiration to thee - and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions therein: to those who worship other things than Allah, hard is the (way) to which thou callest them. Allah chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him)
(Quran; Chap 42 V.13)
The picture which unfolds is not of some remarkable man who appeared on earth as an isolated event in a chaotic world but of a messenger who like all other messengers was sent for his time and his age, a part of the ordered unfolding of the universe as mentioned in the following passage;
.
46. And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Torah that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Torah that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah( Quran;Chap 5 V.46)
6. And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: 'O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Taurát (Law) (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad.' But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, 'This is evident sorcery!'
(Quran; Chap 61 V 6)
Jesus' conception and birth are mentioned in the Quran in great detail . it would be illuminating to begin with his mothers birth and upbringing as mentioned in the following passage;
35. Behold! a wife of Ìmrán said: 'O my Lord! I do dedicate into Thee what is in my womb for Thy special service: So accept this of me: For Thou hearest and knowest all things.'
36. When she was delivered, she said: 'O my Lord! Behold! I am delivered of a female child!'- and Allah knew best what she brought forth- 'And no wise is the male like the female. I have named her Mary, and I commend her and her offspring to Thy protection from Satan, the Rejected.'
37. Right graciously did her Lord accept her: He made her grow in purity and beauty: To the care of Zakariya was she assigned. Every time that he entered (her) chamber to see her, He found her supplied with sustenance. He said: 'O Mary! Whence (comes) this to you?' She said: 'From Allah. for Allah provides sustenance to whom He pleases without measure.'
38. There did Zakariya pray to his Lord, saying: 'O my Lord! Grant unto me from Thee a progeny that is pure: for Thou art He that heareth prayer!'
39. While he was standing in prayer in the chamber, the angels called unto him: 'Allah doth give
thee glad tidings of Yahyá, (John)witnessing the truth of a Word from Allah, and (be besides) noble, chaste, and a prophet,- of the (goodly) company of the righteous.'
40. He said: 'O my Lord! How shall I have a son, seeing I am very old, and my wife is barren?' 'Thus,' was the answer, 'Doth Allah accomplish what He willeth.'
41. He said: 'O my Lord! Give me a Sign!' 'Thy Sign,' was the answer, 'Shall be that thou shalt speak to no man for three days but with signals. Then celebrate the praises of thy Lord again and again, and glorify Him in the evening and in the morning.'
(Quran; Chap 3 V .35-41)
The miraculous birth of Jesus is mentioned in the Chapter Mary
2. (This is) a mention of the Mercy of thy Lord to His servant Zakariya.
3. Behold! he cried to his Lord in secret,
4. Praying: 'O my Lord! infirm indeed are my bones, and the hair of my head doth glisten with gray: but never am I unblest, O my Lord, in my prayer to Thee!
5. 'Now I fear (what) my relatives (and colleagues) (will do) after me: but my wife is barren: so give me an heir as from Thyself,-
6. '(One that) will (truly) inherit me, and inherit the posterity of Jacob; and make him, O my Lord! one with whom Thou art well-pleased!'
7. (His prayer was answered): 'O Zakariya! We give thee good news of a son: His name shall be Yahyá: (John)on none by that name have We conferred distinction before.'
8. He said: 'O my Lord! How shall I have a son, when my wife is barren and I have grown quite decrepit from old age?'
9. He said: 'So (it will be) thy Lord saith, 'That is easy for Me: I did indeed create thee before, when thou hadst been nothing!' '
10. (Zakariya) said: 'O my Lord! give me a Sign.' 'Thy Sign,' was the answer, 'Shall be that thou shalt speak to no man for three nights, although thou art not dumb.'
11. So Zakariya came out to his people from him chamber. He told them by signs to celebrate Allah's praises in the morning and in the evening.
12. (To his son came the command): 'O John! take hold of the Book with might': and We gave him Wisdom even as a youth,
13. And pity (for all creatures) as from Us, and purity: He was devout,
14. And kind to his parents, and he was not overbearing or rebellious.
15. So Peace on him the day he was born, the day that he dies, and the day that he will be raised up to life (again)!
( Quran;Chap 19 V.2-15)
The story of the birth of Jesus is mentioned at two different places i n the Quran
42. Behold! the angels said: 'O Mary! Allah hath chosen thee and purified thee- chosen thee above the women of all nations.
43. 'O Mary! worship thy Lord devoutly: Prostrate thyself, and bow down (in prayer) with those who bow down.'
44. This is part of the tidings of the things unseen, which We reveal unto thee (O Messenger.) by inspiration: Thou wast not with them when they cast lots with pens (or arrows), as to which of them should be charged with the care of Mary: Nor wast thou with them when they disputed (the point).
45. Behold! the angels said: 'O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah.'
46. 'He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous.'
47. She said: 'O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?' He said: 'Even so; Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!'
48. 'And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Torah and the Gospel,'
49. 'And (appoint him) as a messenger to the Children of Israel, (with this message): ''I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I bring the dead into life, by Allah's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;
50. ' '(I have come to you), to attest the Torah which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.
51. ' 'It is Allah Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.''
52. When Jesus found unbelief on their part he said: 'Who will be my helpers to (the work of) Allah?' Said the disciples: 'We are Allah's helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.'
53. 'Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Messenger. then write us down among those who bear witness (Quran;Chap 3. V.42-53).
The place where Jesus was born is mentioned in one other passage;
50. And We made the son of Mary and his mother as a Sign: We gave them both shelter on high ground, affording rest and security and furnished with springs
(Quran; Chap 23 V.50)
His childhood and early manhood are not mentioned . The response of the men who became his disciples is also described in the following passage;
14. O ye who believe! Be ye helpers of Allah: as said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples, 'Who will be my helpers to (the work of) Allah?' Said the Disciples, 'We are Allah's helpers!' then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved: But We gave power to those who believed against their enemies, and they became the ones that prevailed. (Quran;Chap 61 V.14)
and again in detail in the following passages;
111. 'And behold! I inspired the Disciples to have faith in Me and Mine Messenger. They said, 'We have faith, and do thou bear witness that we bow to Allah as Muslims' '.
112. Behold! the Disciples, said: 'O Jesus the son of Mary! can thy Lord send down to us a Table set (with viands) from heaven?' Said Jesus: 'Fear Allah, if ye have faith!'
113. They said: 'We only wish to eat thereof and satisfy our hearts, and to know that thou hast indeed told us the truth; and that we ourselves may be witnesses to the miracle.'
114. Said Jesus the son of Mary: 'O Allah our Lord! Send us from heaven a Table set (with viands), that there may be for us - for the first and the last of us - a solemn festival and a sign from Thee; and provide for our sustenance, for Thou art the best Sustainer (of our needs).'
115. Allah said: 'I will send it down unto you: But if any of you after that resisteth faith, I will punish him with a penalty such as I have not inflicted on any one among all the peoples.'
(Quran; Chap5 V.111-115)
When Jesus' teachings began to spread some accepted the guidance some did not as mentioned in the following passage;
57. When (Jesus) the son of Mary is held up as an example, behold, thy people raise a clamor thereat (in ridicule)!
58. And they say, 'Are our gods best, or he?' This they set forth to thee, only by way of disputation: yea, they are a contentious people.
59. He was no more than a servant: We granted Our favor to him, and We made him an example to the Children of Israel.(Quran; Chapter 43 V,57-59)
Then, in their wake, We followed them up with (others of) Our messengers: We sent after them Jesus the son of Mary, and bestowed on him the Gospel; and We ordained in the hearts of those who followed him Compassion and Mercy. But the Monasticism which they invented for themselves, We did not prescribe for them: (We commanded) only the seeking for the Good Pleasure of Allah; but that they did not foster as they should have done. Yet We bestowed, on those among them who believed, their (due) reward, but many of them are rebellious transgressors
( Quran;Chap57.V.27)
The message he brought was simple as mentioned in the following passage;
63. When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: 'Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear Allah and obey me.
64. 'For Allah, He is my Lord and your Lord: so worship ye Him: this is a Straight Way.'
(Quran Chap43 V.63-64)
His miracles are mentioned again in the following passage;
110. Then will Allah say: 'O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favor to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the Holy Spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Torah and the Gospel. And behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the Clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'
( Quran;Chap5. V 110)
The Quran denies that Jesus is the son of God in the following passage;
68. They say: 'Allah hath begotten a son!' - Glory be to Him! He is Self- Sufficient! His are all things in the heavens and on earth! No warrant have ye for this! Say ye about Allah what ye know not?
(Quran; Chap 10.V.68)
55. Behold! Allah said: 'O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto Me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
56. 'As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with severe agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help.'
57. 'As to those who believe and work righteousness, Allah will pay them (in full) their reward; but Allah loveth not those who do wrong.'
58. 'This is what we rehearse unto thee of the Signs and the Message of Wisdom.'
59. The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: 'Be'. And he was
( Quran;Chap 3. V.55-59)
116. They say: '(Allah) hath begotten a son' :Glory be to Him.-Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth: everything renders worship to Him.
117. The Originator of the heavens and the earth: When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: 'Be,' and it is.
(Quran;Chap 2. V116-117)
26. And they say: 'The Most Gracious has taken a son!' Glory to Him! They are (but) servants raised to honor.
27. They speak not before He speaks, and they act (in all things) by His Command.
28. He knows what is before them, and what is behind them, and they offer no intercession except for those with whom He is well pleased, and they stand in awe and reverence of His (Glory).
29. If any of them should say, 'I am a god besides Him', such a one We should reward with Hell: thus do We reward those who do wrong.
30. Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?
(Quran;Chap 21.V.26-30)
88. They say: 'The Most Gracious has begotten a son!'
89. Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!
90. At it the skies are about to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,
91. That they attributed a son for the Most Gracious.
92. For it is not consonant with the majesty of the Most Gracious that He should beget a son.
93. Not one of the beings in the heavens and the earth but must come to the Most Gracious as a servant.
(Quran;Chap 19V.88-93)
The Quran denies the divinity of Jesus in the following passages;
.
They disbelieved indeed those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: 'Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and every one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things.'
( Quran;Chap5,V.17)
116. And behold! Allah will say: 'O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah.?' He will say: 'Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
117. 'Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.
118. 'If Thou dost punish them, they are Thy servant: If Thou dost forgive them, Thou art the Exalted in power, the Wise.'
( Quran;Chap 5.V116-118)
30. The Jews call Ùzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
31. They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords beside Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One God. there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him).
32. Fain would they extinguish Allah's Light with their mouths, but Allah will not allow but that His Light should be perfected, even though the Unbelievers may detest (it).
(Quran;Chap 9.V30-32)
The Quran rejects the concept of Trinity in the following passage;
171. O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not 'Three (Trinity)' : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is One God. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
172. Christ disdaineth not to serve and worship Allah, nor do the angels, those nearest (to Allah): those who disdain His worship and are arrogant,-He will gather them all together unto Himself to (answer).
173. But to those who believe and do deeds of righteousness, He will give their (due) rewards,- and more, out of His bounty: But those who are disdainful and arrogant, He will punish with a grievous chastisement; Nor will they find, besides Allah, any to protect or help them.
( Quran;Chap 4. V171-173)
The Quran denies the Crucification of Jesus but affirms the ascension in the following passage;
157. That they said (in boast), 'We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.';- But they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
158. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
( Quran;Chap 4. V157-158)
Finally ;
72. Certainly they disbelieve who say: 'Allah is Christ the son of Mary.' But said Christ: 'O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.' Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the Garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.
73. They disbelieved who say: Allah is one of three (in a Trinity): for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous chastisement will befall the disbelievers among them.
74. Why turn they not to Allah, and seek His forgiveness? For Allah is Oft- forgiving, Most Merciful.
75. Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!
(Quran; Chap 5.V72-75)
253. Those messengers We endowed with gifts, some above others: To one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honor); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit. If Allah had so willed, succeeding generations would not have fought among each other, after clear (Signs) had come to them, but they (chose) to wrangle, some believing and others rejecting. If Allah had so willed, they would not have fought each other; but Allah Does what he wills.
( Quran Chap 2. V253)
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Michael .P (Mik3y)
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 07:27 am: |
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What is it that you actually believe alianne?
Michael william James
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ALIANNE OUSSAMEUR (Alianne)
Starlite Member
Username: Alianne
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 11:56 am: |
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JENNIFER: WHERE IS THE HOLY GHOST IN ALL THIS???
read from John 10:30 to John 10:40, You will see that Jesus means he is in union with His Father not THAT HE IS God. He denies being God as the Jews think he is saying to them and he goes on to say to them he is only God's Son. |
Jennifer Maxwell (Jennifer03801)
Starlite Member
Username: Jennifer03801
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 09:17 am: |
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John 10:30
“I and the Father are one.”
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ALIANNE OUSSAMEUR (Alianne)
Starlite Member
Username: Alianne
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 10:58 pm: |
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As I said before Michael you did not post a Scripture where Jesus said he was God in his 3 year ministry. Your answer is a copout*(???)I am not sure of the spelling on that one |
Michael .P (Mik3y)
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 08:37 pm: |
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The passages you are asking for have time and time again been pasted on several topics. I really can't see how you can ask such a question. Did you just ignore them all..and how can i know its safe to post them again without you ignoring them again?! No im sorry i won't as i've said in the other post your ignorance and smoke screens are just a way of trying to hide your own insecurities.
Michael william James
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ALIANNE OUSSAMEUR (Alianne)
Starlite Member
Username: Alianne
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 11:04 am: |
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MICHAEL: there is not one passage in the Bible where Jesus said he was God.Accuracy please in your postings. |
Michael .P (Mik3y)
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 09:38 pm: |
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If the Bible wasn't meant to be read in its entirety to understand it then you'd find me in agreeance with you. But if i too take out various passages from the Bible that say the complete opposite and told those who doubt Jesus deity they were wrong. I'd have as clear a case as you. But, following the Bible in its entirety it is clear That Jesus does say he is God and hence why the Jews wanted him dead. This would also explain why in many Islam ruled countries the Bible and such literature is feared. The truth is often hard to handle..but always the best thing for us.
Michael william James
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ALIANNE OUSSAMEUR (Alianne)
Starlite Member
Username: Alianne
| | Posted on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 03:32 pm: |
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MICHAEL I do agree with you and I think you should be worried. Check out the Catholic Bible , don't take my word for it. It is my hope that many other Catholics as well as Protestants will be checking it out and realize that something must be wrong.
1 Corinthians 8:6 "...for us there is but one God, the Father..."
Revelations 1 :5,6 "... Jesus Christ...has made us a kingdom of priests for his God and Father..."
All these 6 translations agree with one another on this fact; let no one deceive you.
King James
New American Standard
The New American Bible (Catholic)
Beck In the language of today-
Williams - In the language of the people
These Scriptures also do agree with the New World Translation of Jehovah's Witnesses |
Michael .P (Mik3y)
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 12:48 am: |
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All the doctrines of the Church are from the scriptures Alianne..and if the church did have a teaching that was not true to God..then yes i would be worried. But they do not and i am in great Faith with the Church and my Father God in heaven.
Michael william James
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ALIANNE OUSSAMEUR (Alianne)
Starlite Member
Username: Alianne
| | Posted on Sunday, August 21, 2005 - 11:33 am: |
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Thank you, Tess for the reminder |
Tess (Tess)
Starlite Administrator
Username: Tess
| | Posted on Friday, August 19, 2005 - 09:16 pm: |
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Alianne,
In the odd case that you don't know, writing in capital letters is the equal to yelling. Please don't do so in any further posts at this site.
And get to work on that poetry of yours! Remember, only poets get to discuss! This is a poetry forum, yadda yadda. I have already explained it to you in detail. And I am really not bluffing on this. This discussion forum is only for the people who post real and legitimate poetry at our site.
If you can't do so, I will remove your profile. This is my third warning about this. I will not warn you again.
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ALIANNE OUSSAMEUR (Alianne)
Starlite Member
Username: Alianne
| | Posted on Friday, August 19, 2005 - 08:36 pm: |
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MICHAEL: YOU SHOULD ALSO BE UNCOMFORTABLE WITH UNTRUE CHURCH DOCTRINES THAT ARE NOT FOUND IN THE BIBLE. STANGE HOW YOUR COMFORT IS NOT WITH GOD'S WORDS |
Michael .P (Mik3y)
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 09:12 pm: |
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Perhaps you should look at the reasons why i am uncomfortable with them. Its not because i do not like them, or personally don't believe thats how its meant to be. It is because God has shown me through the scriptures and many men that ince5t is wrong. Secondly God has revealed to man in studying the scriptures that not every detail can be taken so literally. Why? Well because the tradition consisted of the stories of Old Testament and new being delivered by word of mouth and through stories to explain meaning. Im not in anyway suggesting all the stories are untrue and that we should only look at the meaning. But that not all the tiny details will be 100% correct. However these tiny details will never take the meaning or Truth God has revealed to us away. We know that we did not come from a long line of ince5t. We definitely know that God discouraged ince5t in the scriptures.
Michael william James
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ALIANNE OUSSAMEUR (Alianne)
Starlite Member
Username: Alianne
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 05:39 pm: |
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MICHAEL, YOUR WORDS: "Nor was my point about the sex of a bee Alianne but taking the Bible literally to the extreme."
I say to you Michael, what is extreme in quoting the Bible when it says that Abraham the friend of God married his sister Sarah or that Cain married his sister???
Are you telling me because you feel uncomfortable with the Words that I should deny them???
My point about the bee is for you and Zaheer to get your facts straight before posting them. |
Michael .P (Mik3y)
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 07:31 pm: |
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Nor was my point about the sex of a bee Alianne but taking the Bible literally to the extreme.
Michael william James
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ALIANNE OUSSAMEUR (Alianne)
Starlite Member
Username: Alianne
| | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 07:16 pm: |
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THE POINT WAS NOT ABOUT THE SEX OF A BEE BUT ONE'S CREDEBILITY IN HANDLING THE TRUTH ARIGHT. BEES ARE ANOTHER VERY INTERESTING CREATION |
Michael .P (Mik3y)
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 09:10 pm: |
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Once again why its important not to take the word so Literal. The meaning is to be taken Literally but not so much the itty bitty unimportant details. Such as the sex of a bee : \
Michael william James
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ALIANNE OUSSAMEUR (Alianne)
Starlite Member
Username: Alianne
| | Posted on Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 09:25 am: |
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In response to Zaheer's posting below for those interested in "bees". One can easily recognize the three types of bees in a hive. The queen is the largest or longest in size of the lot, she is female and the only one to lay eggs. The male, the drone, is is shorter than the queen but rather plump in size; his only task is fertilizing the queen. The worker bee is neither male or female but neutral in gender under ordinary circumstances.They are the workers in the hive doing many tasks from protecting, to cleaning, to airconditionning to harvesting the nectar and making the honey.
ZAHEER'S POSTING:"In the 16th chapter (Surah an-Nahl 16:68-69) the Qur'an mentions that the female bee leaves its home to gather food. Now, a person might guess on that, saying, "The bee that you see flying around - it could be male, or it could be female. I think I will guess female." Certainly, he has a one in two chance of being right. So it happens that the Qur'an is right. But it also happens that that was not what most people believed at the time when the Qur'an was revealed. Can you tell the difference between a male and a female bee? Well, it takes a specialist to do that, but it has been discovered that the male bee never leaves his home to gather food. However, in Shakespeare's play, Henry the Fourth, some of the characters discuss bees and mention that the bees are soldiers and have a king. That is what people thought in Shakespeare's time - that the bees that one sees flying around are male bees and that they go home and answer to a king. However, that is not true at all. The fact is that they are females, and they answer to a queen. Yet it took modern scientific investigations in the last 300 years to discover that this is the case." |
Michael .P (Mik3y)
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 04:54 am: |
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See that would be correct Alianne if the tradition handed down was originated in man. But, the tradition is from none other than God Himself. There is no Breaking of any commandment within the church! In no way would this be tolerated.
Zaheer i have just one thing to say to that post.. errm WHY?! :\ ugh.
Michael william James
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zaheer - uddin (Zaheer)
Starlite Member
Username: Zaheer
| | Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 04:05 pm: |
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The Glorious Quran
By Dr Gary Miller
One thing which surprises non-Muslims who are examining the book very closely is that the Qur'an does not appear to them to be what they expected. What they assume is that they have an old book which came fourteen centuries ago from the Arabian desert; and they expect that the book should look something like that - an old book from the desert. And then they find out that it does not resemble what they expected at all. Additionally, one of the first things that some people assume is that because it is an old book which comes from the desert, it should talk about the desert. Well the Qur'an does talk about the desert - some of its imagery describes the desert; but it also talks about the sea - what it's like to be in a storm on the sea.
Merchant Marine
Some years ago, the story came to us in Toronto about a man who was in the merchant marine and made his living on the sea. A Muslim gave him a translation of the Qur'an to read. The merchant marine knew nothing about the history of Islam but was interested in reading the Qur'an. When he finished reading it, he brought it back to the Muslim and asked, "This Muhammad, was he a sailor?" He was impressed at how accurately the Qur'an describes a storm on a sea. When he was told, "No as a matter of fact, Muhammad lived in the desert," that was enough for him. He embraced Islam on the spot.
He was so impressed with the Qur'an's description because he had been in a storm on the sea, and he knew that whoever had written that description had also been in a storm on the sea. The description of "a wave, over it a wave, over it clouds" (Surah Nur, 24:40) was not what someone imagining a storm on a sea to be like would have written; rather, it was written by someone who knew what a storm on the sea was like. This is one example of how the Qur'an is not tied to certain place and time. Certainly, the scientific ideas expressed in it also do not seem to originate from the desert fourteen centuries ago.
The Smallest Thing
Many centuries before the onset of Muhammad's prophethood, there was a well-known theory of atomism advanced by the Greek philosopher, Democritus. He and the people who came after him assumed that matter consists of tiny, indestructible, indivisible particles called atoms. The Arabs too, used to deal in the same concept; in fact, the Arabic word dharrah commonly referred to the smallest particle known to man. Now, modern science has discovered that this smallest unit of matter (i.e., the atom, which has all of the same properties as its element) can be split into its component parts. This is a new idea, a development of the last century; yet; interestingly enough, this information had already been documented in the Qur'an (Surah Saba', 34:3) which states:
"He [i.e., Allah] is aware of an atom's weight in the heavens and on the earth and even anything smaller than that..."
Undoubtedly, fourteen centuries ago that statement would have looked unusual, even to an Arab. For him, the dharrah was the smallest thing there was. Indeed, this is proof, that the Qur'an is not outdated.
Honey
Another example of what one might expect to find in an "old book" that touches upon the subject of health or medicine is outdated remedies or cures. Various historical sources state that the Prophet (s) gave some advice about health and hygiene, yet most of these pieces of advice are not contained in the Qur'an. At first glance, to the non-Muslims this appears to be a negligent omission. They cannot understand why Allah would not "include" such helpful information in the Qur'an. Some Muslims attempt to explain this absence with the following argument: "Although the Prophet's advice was sound and applicable to the time in which he lived, Allah, in His infinite wisdom, knew that there would come later medical and scientific advances which would make the Prophet's advice appear outdated. When later discoveries occurred, people might say that such information contradicted that which the Prophet (s) had given. Thus, since Allah would never allow any opportunity for the non-Muslims to claim that the Qur'an contradicts itself or the teachings of the Prophet (s), He only included in the Qur'an information and examples which could stand the test of time." However, when one examines the true realities of the Qur'an in terms of its existence as a divine revelation, the entire matter is quickly brought into its proper perspective, and the error in such argumentation becomes clear and understandable.
It must be understood that the Qur'an is a divine revelation, and as such, all information in it is of divine origin. Allah revealed the Qur'an from Himself. It is the words of Allah, which existed before creation, and thus nothing can be added, subtracted or altered. In essence, the Qur'an existed and was complete before the creation of Prophet Muhammad (s), so it could not possibly contain any of the Prophet's own words or advice. An inclusion of such information would clearly contradict the purpose for which the Qur'an exists, compromise its authority and render it inauthentic as a divine revelation.
Consequently, there was no "home remedies" in the Qur'an which one could claim to be outdated; nor does it contain any man's view about what is beneficial to health, what food is best to eat, or what will cure this or that disease. In fact, the Qur'an only mentions one item dealing with medical treatment, and it is not in dispute by anyone. It states that in honey there is healing. And certainly, I do not think that there is anyone who will argue with that!
Prophet Muhammad (S) and The Qur'an
If one assumes that the Qur'an is the product of a man's mind, then one would expect it to reflect some of what was going on in the mind of the man who "composed" it. In fact, certain encyclopedias and various books claim that the Qur'an was the product of hallucinations that Muhammad underwent. If these claims are true - if it indeed originated from some psychological problems in Muhammad's mind - then evidence of this would be apparent in the Qur'an. Is there such evidence? In order to determine whether or not there is, one must first identify what things would have been going on in his mind at that time and then search for these thoughts and reflections in the Qur'an.
It is common knowledge that Muhammad (s) had a very difficult life. All of his daughters died before him except one, and he had a wife of several years who was very dear and important to him, who not only proceeded him in death but died at a very critical period of his life. As a matter of fact, she must have been quite a woman because when the first revelation came to him, he ran home to her, afraid. Certainly, even today one would have a hard time trying to find an Arab who would tell you, "I was so afraid that I ran home to my wife." They just aren't that way. Yet Muhammad (s) felt comfortable enough with his wife to be able to do that. That's how influential and strong woman she was. Although these examples are only a few of the subjects that would have been on Muhammad's mind, they are sufficient in intensity to prove my point.
The Qur'an does not mention any of these things - not the death of his children, not the death of his beloved companion and wife, not his fear of the initial revelations, which he so beautifully shared with his wife - nothing; yet these topics must have hurt him, bothered him, and caused him pain and grief during periods of his life. Indeed, if the Qur'an was a product of his psychological reflections, then these subjects, as well as others, would be prevalent or at least mentioned throughout.
Scientific Approach to The Qur'an
A truly scientific approach to the Qur'an is possible because the Qur'an offers something that is not offered by other religious scriptures, in particular, and other religions, in general. It is what scientists demand. Today there are many people who have ideas and theories about how the universe works. These people are all over the place, but the scientific community does not even bother to listen to them. This is because within the last century the scientific community has demanded a test of falsification. They say, "If you have theory, do not bother us with it unless you bring with that theory a way for us to prove whether you are wrong or not."
Such a test was exactly why the scientific community listened to Einstein towards the beginning of the century. He came with a new theory and said, "I believe the universe works like this; and here are three ways to prove whether I am wrong!" So the scientific community subjected his theory to the tests, and within six years it passed all three. Of course, this does not prove that he was great, but it proves that he deserved to be listened to because he said, "This is my idea; and if you want to try to prove me wrong, do this or try that."
This is exactly what the Qur'an has - falsification tests. Some are old (in that they have already been proven true), and some still exist today. Basically it states, "If this book is not what it claims to be, then all you have to do is this or this or this to prove that it is false." Of course, in 1400 years no one has been able to do "This or this or this," and thus it is still considered true and authentic.
Falsification Test
I suggest to you that the next time you get into dispute with someone about Islam and he claims that he has the truth and that you are in darkness, you leave all other arguments at first and make this suggestion. Ask him, "Is there any falsification test in your religion? Is there anything in your religion that would prove you are wrong if I could prove to you that it exists - anything?" Well, I can promise right now that people will not have anything - no test, no proof, nothing! This is because they do not carry around the idea that they should not only present what they believe but should also offer others a chance to prove they're wrong. However, Islam does that.
A perfect example of how Islam provides man with a chance to verify it authenticity and "prove it wrong" occurs in the 4th chapter. And quiet honestly, I was very surprised when I first discovered this challenge. It states (Surah An-Nisa, 4:82):
"Do they not consider the Qur'an? Had it been from any other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy."
This is a clear challenge to the non-Muslim. Basically, it invites him to find a mistake. As a matter of fact, the seriousness and difficulty of the challenge aside, the actual presentation of such a challenge in the first place is not even in human nature and is inconsistent with man's personality. One doesn't take an exam in school and after finishing the exam, write a note to the instructor at the end saying, "This exam is perfect. There are no mistakes in it. Find one if you can!" One just doesn't do that. The teacher would not sleep until he found a mistake! And yet this is the way the Qur'an approaches people.
Ask Those Who Have Knowledge
Another interesting attitude that exists in the Qur'an repeatedly deals with its advice to the reader. The Qur'an informs the reader about different facts and then gives the advice: "If you want to know more about this or that, or if you doubt what is said, then you should ask those who have knowledge." This too is a surprising attitude. It is not usual to have a book that comes from someone without training in geography, botany, biology, etc., who discusses these subjects and then advises the reader to ask men of knowledge if he doubts anything. Yet in every age there have been Muslims who have followed the advice of the Qur'an and made surprising discoveries. If one looks to the works of Muslim scientists of many centuries ago, one will find them full of quotations from the Qur'an. These works state that they did research in such a place, looking for something. And they affirm that the reason they looked in such and such a place was that the Qur'an pointed them in that direction.
For example, the Qur'an mentions man's origin and then tells the reader, "Research it!" It gives the reader a hint where to look and then states that one should find out more about it. This is the kind of thing that Muslims today largely seem to overlook - but not always, as illustrated in the following example.
Embryology
A few years ago, a group of men in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia collected all of the verses in the Qur'an which discuss embryology - the growth of the human being in the womb. They said, "Here is what the Qur'an says. Is it the truth?" In essence, they took the advice of the Qur'an: "Ask the men who know." They chose, as it happened, a non-Muslim who is a professor of embryology at the University of Toronto. His name is Keith Moore, and he is the author of textbooks on embryology - a world expert on the subject. They invited him to Riyadh and said, "This is what the Qur'an says about your subject. Is it true? What can you tell us?"
While he was in Riyadh, they gave him all the help that he needed in translation and all of the cooperation for which he asked. And he was so surprised at what he found that he changed his textbooks. In fact, in the second edition of one of his books, called Before We Are Born... in the section about the history of embryology, he included some material that was not in the first edition because of what he found in the Qur'an was ahead of its time and that those who believe in the Qur'an know what other people do not know.
I had the pleasure of interviewing Dr. Keith Moore for a television presentation, and we talked a great deal about this - it was illustrated by slides and so on. He mentioned that some of the things that the Qur'an states about the growth of the human being were not known until thirty years ago. In fact, he said that one item in particular - the Qur'an's description of the human being as a "leech-like clot" ('alaqah) at one stage (Surahs al-Hajj 22:5; al-Mu'minun 23:14; and Ghafir 40:67) - was new to him; but when he checked on it, he found that it was true, and so he added it to his book. He said, "I never thought of that before," and he went to the zoology department and asked for a picture of a leech. When he found that it looked just like the human embryo, he decided to include both pictures in one of his textbooks.
Although the aforementioned example of man researching information contained in the Qur'an deals with a non-Muslim, it is still valid because he is one of those who is knowledgeable in the subject being researched. Had some layman claimed that what the Qur'an says about embryology is true, then one would not necessarily have to accept his word. However, because of the high position, respect, and esteem man gives scholars, one naturally assumes that if they research a subject and arrive at a conclusion based on that research, then the conclusion is valid.
Skeptic's Reaction
Dr. Moore also wrote a book on clinical embryology, and when he presented this information in Toronto, it caused quite a stir throughout Canada. It was on the front pages of some of the newspapers across Canada, and some of the headlines were quite funny. For instance, one headline read: "SURPRISING THING FOUND IN ANCIENT PRAYER BOOK!" It seems obvious from this example that people do not clearly understand what it is all about. As a matter of fact, one newspaper reporter asked Professor Moore, "Don't you think that maybe the Arabs might have known about these things - the description of the embryo, its appearance and how it changes and grows? Maybe they were not scientists, maybe they did some crude dissections on their own - carved up people and examined these things." The professor immediately pointed out to him that he [i.e., the reporter] had missed a very important point - all of the slides of the embryo that had been shown and that had been projected in the film had come from pictures taken through a microscope. He said, "It does not matter if someone had tried to discover embryology fourteen centuries ago. They could not have seen it!"
All of the descriptions in the Qur'an of the appearance of the embryo are of the item when it is still too small to see with the eye; therefore, one needs a microscope to see it. Since such a device had only been around for little more than two hundred years, Dr. Moore taunted, "Maybe fourteen centuries ago someone secretly had a microscope and did this research, making no mistakes anywhere. Then he somehow taught Muhammad (s) and convinced him to put this information in his book. Then he destroyed his equipment and kept it a secret forever. Do you believe that? You really should not unless you bring some proof because it is such a ridiculous theory." In fact, when he was asked, "How do you explain this information in the Qur'an?" Dr. Moore's reply was, "It could only have been divinely revealed!"
Geology
One of Professor Moore's colleagues, Marshall Johnson, deals extensively with geology at the University of Toronto. He became very interested in the fact that the Qur'an's statements about embryology are accurate, and so he asked Muslims to collect everything contained in the Qur'an which deals with his speciality. Again people were very surprised at the findings. Since there are a vast number subjects discussed in the Qur'an, it would certainly require a large amount of time to exhaust each subject. It suffices for the purpose of this discussion to state that the Qur'an makes very clear and concise statements about various subjects while simultaneously advising the reader to verify the authenticity of these statements with research by scholars in those subjects. And as illustrated by the previous examples of embryology and geology, the Qur'an has clearly emerged authentic.
You Did Not Know This Before!
Undoubtedly, there is an attitude in the Qur'an which is not found anywhere else. It is interesting how when the Qur'an provides information, it often tells the reader, "You did not know this before." Indeed, there is no scripture that exists which makes that claim. All of the other ancient writings and scriptures that people have do give a lot of information, but they always state where the information came from.
For example, when the Bible discusses ancient history, it states that this king lived here, this one fought in a certain battle, another one had so may sons, etc. Yet it always stipulates that if you want more information, then you should read the book of so and so because that is where the information came from. In contrast to this concept, the Qur'an provides the reader with information and states that this information is something new. Of course, there always exists the advice to research the information provided and verify its authenticity. It is interesting that such a concept was never challenged by non-Muslims fourteen centuries ago. Indeed, the Makkans who hated the Muslims, and time and time again they heard such revelations claiming to bring new information; yet, they never spoke up and said, "This is not new. We know where Muhammad got this information. We learned this at school." They could never challenge its authenticity because it really was new!
In concurrence with the advice given in the Qur'an to research information (even if it is new), when 'Umar was caliph, he chose a group of men and sent them to find the wall of Dhul-Qarnayn. Before the Qur'anic revelation, the Arabs had never heard of such a wall, but because the Qur'an described it, they were able to discover it. As a matter of fact, it is now located in what is called Durbend in the Soviet Union.
Proof of Authenticity: An Approach
It must be stressed here that the Qur'an is accurate about many, many things, but accuracy does not necessarily mean that a book is a divine revelation. In fact, accuracy is only one of the criteria for divine revelations. For instance, the telephone book is accurate, but that does not mean that it is divinely revealed. The real problem lies in that one must establish some proof of the source the Qur'an's information. The emphasis is in the other direction, in that the burden of proof is on the reader. One cannot simply deny the Qur'an's authenticity without sufficient proof. If, indeed, one finds a mistake, then he has the right to disqualify it. This is exactly what the Qur'an encourages.
Once a man came up to me after a lecture I delivered in South Africa. He was very angry about what I had said, and so he claimed, "I am going to go home tonight and find a mistake in the Qur'an." Of course, I said, "Congratulations. That is the most intelligent thing that you have said." Certainly, this is the approach Muslims need to take with those who doubt the Qur'an's authenticity, because the Qur'an itself offers the same challenge. And inevitably, after accepting it's challenge and discovering that it is true, these people will come to believe it because they could not disqualify it. In essence, the Qur'an earns their respect because they themselves have had to verify its authenticity.
An essential fact that cannot be reiterated enough concerning the authenticity of the Qur'an is that one's inability to explain a phenomenon himself does not require his acceptance of the phenomenon's existence or another person's explanation of it. Specifically, just because one cannot explain something does not mean that one has to accept someone else's explanation. However, the person's refusal of other explanations reverts the burden of proof back on himself to find a feasible answer. This general theory applies to numerous concepts in life, but fits most wonderfully with the Qur'anic challenge, for it creates a difficulty for one who says, "I do not believe it." At the onset of refusal one immediately has an obligation to find an explanation himself if he feels others' answers are inadequate.
In fact, in one particular Qur'anic verse which I have always seen mistranslated into English, Allah mentions a man who heard the truth explained to him. It states that he was derelict in his duty because after he heard the information, he left without checking the verity of what he had heard. In other words, one is guilty if he hears something and does not research it and check to see whether it is true. One is supposed to process all information and decide what is garbage to be thrown out and what is worthwhile information to be kept and benefitted from immediately or even at a later date.
One cannot just let it rattle around in his head. It must be put in the proper categories and approached from that point of view. For example, if the information is still speculatory, then one must discern whether it's closer to being true or false. But if all the facts have been presented, then one must decide absolutely between these two options. And even if one is not positive about the authenticity of the information, he is still required to process all the information and make the admission that he just does not know for sure. Although this last point appears to be futile, in actuality, it is beneficial to the arrival at a positive conclusion at a later time in that it forces the person to at least recognize, research and review the facts.
This familiarity with the information will give the person "the edge" when future discoveries are made and additional information is presented. The important thing is that one deals with the facts and does not simply discard them out of empathy and disinterest.
Exhausting the Alternatives
The real certainty about the truthfulness of the Qur'an is evident in the confidence which is prevalent throughout it; and this confidence comes from a different approach - "Exhausting the alternatives." In essence, the Qur'an states, "This book is a divine revelation; if you do not believe that, then what is it?" In other words, the reader is challenged to come up with some other explanation. Here is a book made of paper and ink. Where did it come from? It says it is a divine revelation; if it is not, then what is its source? The interesting fact is that no one has yet come up with an explanation that works. In fact, all alternatives have bee exhausted. As has been well established by non-Muslims, these alternatives basically are reduced to two mutually exclusive schools of thought, insisting on one or the other.
On one hand, there exists a large group of people who have researched the Qur'an for hundreds of years and who claim, "One thing we know for sure - that man, Muhammad (s), thought he was a prophet. He was crazy!" They are convinced that Muhammad (s) was fooled somehow. Then on the other hand, there is a group which alleges, "Because of this evidence, one thing we know for sure is that that man, Muhammad (s) was a liar!" Ironically, these two groups never seem to get together without contradicting.
In fact, many references to Islam usually claim both theories. They start out by stating that Muhammad (s) was crazy and then end by saying he was a liar. They never seem to realize that he could not have been both! For example, if one is deluded and really thinks that he is a prophet, then he does not sit up late at night planning, "How will I fool the people tomorrow so that they think I am a prophet?" He truly believes that he is a prophet, and he trusts that the answer will be given to him by revelation.
The Critic's Tail
As a matter of fact, a great deal of the Qur'an came in answer to questions. Someone would ask Muhammad (s) a question, and the revelation would come with the answer to it. Certainly, if one is crazy and believes that an angel put words in his ear, then when someone asks him a question, he thinks that the angel will give him the answer. Because he is crazy, he really thinks that. He does not tell someone to wait a short while and then run to his friends and ask them, "Does anyone know the answer?" This type of behavior is characteristic of one who does not believe that he is a prophet. What the non-Muslims refuse to accept is that you cannot have it both ways. One can be deluded, or he can be a liar. He can br either one or neither one, but he certainly cannot be both! The emphasis is on the fact that they are unquestionably mutually exclusive personality traits.
The following scenario is a good example of the kind of circle that non-Muslims go around in constantly. If you ask one of them, "What is the origin of the Qur'an?" He tells you that it originated from the mind of a man who was crazy. Then you ask him, "If it came from his head, then where did he get the information contained in it? Certainly the Qur'an mentions many things with which the Arabs were not familiar." So in order to explain the fact which you bring him, he changes his position and says, "Well, maybe he was not crazy. Maybe some foreigner brought him the information. So he lied and told people that he was a prophet." At this point then you have to ask him, "If Muhammad was a liar, then where did he get his confidence? Why did he behave as though he really thought he was a prophet?" Finally backed into a corner, like a cat he quickly lashes out with the first response that comes to his mind. Forgetting that he has already exhausted that possibility, he claims, "Well, maybe he wasn't a liar. He was probably crazy and really thought that he was a prophet." And thus he begins the futile cycle again.
As has already been mentioned, there is much information contained in the Qur'an whose source cannot be attributed to anyone other than Allah. For example, who told Muhammad (s) about the wall of Dhul-Qarnayn - a place hundreds of miles to the north? Who told him about embryology? When people assemble facts such as these, if they are not willing to attribute their existence to a divine source, they automatically resort to the assumption someone brought Muhammad (s) the information and that he used it to fool the people. However, this theory can easily be disproved with one simple question: "If Muhammad (s) was a liar, where did he get his confidence? Why did he tell some people out right to their face what others could never say?" Such confidence depends completely upon being convinced that one has a true divine revelation.
A Revelation - Abu Lahab
Prophet Muhammad (s) had an uncle by the name of Abu Lahab. This man hated Islam to such an extent that he used to follow the Prophet around in order to discredit him. If Abu Lahab saw the Prophet (s) speaking to a stranger, he would wait until they parted and the would go to the stranger and ask him, "What did he tell you? Did he say, 'Black'? Well, it's white. Did he say 'morning'? Well, it's night." He faithfully said the exact opposite of whatever he heard Muhammad (s) and the Muslims say. However, about ten years before Abu Lahab died, a little chapter in the Qur'an (Surah al-Lahab, 111) was revealed about him. It distinctly stated that he would go to the fire (i.e., Hell). In other words, it affirmed that he would never become a Muslim and would therefore be condemned forever. For ten years all Abu Lahab had to do was say, "I heard that it has been revealed to Muhammad that I will never change - that I will never become a Muslim and will enter the Hellfire. Well, I want to become Muslim now. How do you like that? What do you think of your divine revelation now?" But he never did that. And yet, that is exactly the kind of behavior one would have expected from him since he always sought to contradict Islam.
In essence, Muhammad (s) said, "You hate me and you want to finish me? Here, say these words, and I am finished. Come on, say them!" But Abu Lahab never said them. Ten years! And in all that time he never accepted Islam or even became sympathetic to the Islamic cause.
How could Muhammad (s) possibly have known for sure that Abu Lahab would fulfil the Qur'anic revelation if he (i.e., Muhammad) was not truly the messenger of Allah? How could he possibly have been so confident as to give someone 10 years to discredit his claim of prophethood? The only answer is that he was Allah's messenger; for in order to put forth such a risky challenge, one has to be entirely convinced that he has a divine revelation.
The Flight
Another example of the confidence which Muhammad (s) had in his own prophethood and consequently in the divine protection of himself and his message is when he left Makkah and hid in a cave with Abu Bakr (ra) during their emigration to Madeenah. The two clearly saw people coming to kill them, and Abu Bakr was afraid. Certainly, if Muhammad (s) was a liar, a forger and one who was trying to fool the people into believing that he was a prophet, one would have expected him to say in such a circumstance to his friend, "Hey, Abu Bakr, see if you can find a back way out of this cave." Or "Squat down in that corner over there and keep quiet." Yet, in fact, what he said to Abu Bakr clearly illustrated his confidence. He told him, "Relax! Allah is with us, and Allah will save us!" Now, if one knows that he is fooling the people, where does one get this kind of attitude? In fact, such a frame of mind is not characteristic of a liar or a forger at all.
So, as has been previously mentioned, the non-Muslims go around and around in a circle, searching for a way out - some way to explain the findings in the Qur'an without attributing them to their proper source. On one hand, they tell you on Monday, Wednesday and Friday, "The man was a liar," and on the other hand, on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday they tell you, "He was crazy." What they refuse to accept is that one cannot have it both ways; yet they need both theories, both excuses to explain the information in the Qur'an.
An Encounter with a Minister
About seven years ago, I had a minister over to my home. In the particular room which we were sitting there was a Qur'an on the table, face down, and so the minister was not aware of which book it was. In the midst of a discussion, I pointed to the Qur'an and said, "I have confidence in that book." Looking at the Qur'an but not knowing which book it was, he replied, "Well, I tell you, if that book is not the Bible, it was written by a man!" In response to his statement, I said, "Let me tell you something about what is in that book." And in just three to four minutes, I related to him a few things contained in the Qur'an. After just those three or four minutes, he completely changed his position and declared, "You are right. A man did not write that book. The Devil wrote it!" Indeed, possessing such an attitude is very unfortunate - for many reasons. For one thing, it is a very quick and cheap excuse. It is an instant exit out of an uncomfortable situation.
As a matter of fact, there is a famous story in the Bible that mentions how one day some of the Jews were witnesses when Jesus (pbuh) raised a man from the dead. The man had been dead for four days, and when Jesus arrived, he simply said, "Get up!" and the man arose and walked away. At such a sight, some of the Jews who were watching said disbelievingly, "This is the Devil. The Devil helped him!" Now this story is rehearsed very often in churches all over the world, and people cry big tears over it, saying, "Oh, if I had been there, I would not have been as stupid as the Jews!" Yet, ironically, these people do exactly what the Jews did when in just three minutes you show them only a small part of the Qur'an and all they can say is, "Oh, the Devil did it. The devil wrote that book!" Because they are truly backed into a corner and have no other viable answer, they resort to the quickest and cheapest excuse available.
The Source of The Qur'an
Another example of people's use of this weak stance can be found in the Makkans' explanation of the source of Muhammad's message. They used to say, "The devils bring Muhammad that Qur'an!" But just as with every suggestion made, the Qur'an gives the answer. One verse (Surah Al-Qalam 68: 51-52) in particular states:
"And they say, 'Surely he is possessed [by jinn],' but it [i.e., the Qur'an] is not except a reminder to the worlds."
Thus it gives an argument in reply to such a theory. In fact, there are many arguments in the Qur'an in reply to the suggestion that devils brought Muhammad (s) his message. For example, in the 26th chapter Allah (SWT) clearly affirms:
"No evil ones have brought it [i.e., this revelation] down. It would neither be fitting for them, nor would they be able. Indeed they have been removed far from hearing." (Surah ash-Shu'ara 26:210-212)
And in another place (Surah an-Nahl 16:98) in the Qur'an, Allah (SWT) instructs us:
"So when you recite the Qur'an seek refuge in Allah from Shaytan, the rejected."
Now is this how Satan writes a book? He tells one, "Before you read my book, ask God to save you from me?" This is very, very tricky. Indeed, a man could write something like this, but would Satan do this? Many people clearly illustrate that they cannot come to one conclusion on this subject. On one hand, they claim that Satan would not do such a thing and that even if he could, God would not allow him to; yet, on the other hand, they also believe that Satan is only that much less than God. In essence they allege that the Devil can probably do whatever God can do. And as a result, when they look at the Qur'an, even as surprised as they are as to how amazing it is, they still insist, "The Devil did this!"
Thanks be to Allah (SWT), Muslims do not have that attitude. Although Satan may have some abilities, they are a long way separated from the abilities of Allah. And no Muslim is a Muslim unless he believes that. It is common knowledge even among non-Muslims that the Devil can easily make mistakes, and it would be expected that he would contradict himself if and when he wrote a book. For indeed, the Qur'an states (Surah an-Nisa 4:82):
"Do they not consider the Qur'an? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy."
Mythomania
In conjunction with the excuses that non-Muslims advance in futile attempts to justify unexplainable verses in the Qur'an, there is another attack often rendered which seems to be a combination of the theories that Muhammad (s) was crazy and a liar. Basically, these people propose that Muhammad was insane, and as a result of his delusion, he lied to and misled people. There is a name for this in psychology. It is referred to as mythomania. It means simply that one tells lies and then believes them. This is what the non-Muslims say Muhammad (s) suffered from. But the only problem with this proposal is that one suffering from mythomania absolutely cannot deal with any facts, and yet the whole Qur'an is based entirely upon facts. Everything contained in it can be researched and established as true. Since facts are such a problem for a mythomaniac, when a psychologist tries to treat one suffering from that condition, he continually confronts him with facts.
For example, if one is mentally ill and claims, "I am the king of England," a psychologist does not say to him "No you aren't. You are crazy!" He just does not do that. Rather, he confronts him with facts and says, "O.K., you say you are the king of England. So tell me where the queen is today. And where is your prime minister? And where are your guards?" Now, when the man has trouble trying to deal with these questions, he tries to make excuses, saying "Uh... the queen... she has gone to her mother's. Uh... the prime minister... well he died." And eventually he is cured because he cannot deal with the facts. If the psychologist continues confronting him with enough facts, finally he faces the reality and says, "I guess I am not the king of England."
The Qur'an approaches everyone who reads it in very much the same way a psychologist treats his mythomania patient. There is a verse in the Qur'an (Surah Yunus 10:57) which states:
"O mankind, there has come to you an admonition [i.e., the Qur'an] from your Lord and a healing for what is in the hearts - and guidance and mercy for the believers."
At first glance, this statement appears vague, but the meaning of this verse is clear when one views it in light of the aforementioned example. Basically, one is healed of his delusions by reading the Qur'an. In essence, it is therapy. It literally cures deluded people by confronting them with facts. A prevalent attitude throughout the Qur'an is one which says, "O mankind, you say such and such about this; but what about such and such? How can you say this when you know that?" And so forth. It forces one to consider what is relevant and what matters while simultaneously healing one of the delusions that facts presented to mankind by Allah can easily be explained away with flimsy theories and excuses.
New Catholic Encyclopaedia
It is this very sort of thing - confronting people with facts - that had captured the attention of many non-Muslims. In fact, there exists a very interesting reference concerning this subject in the New Catholic Encyclopedia. In an article under the subject of the Qur'an, the Catholic Church states:
"Over the centuries, many theories have been offered as to the origin of the Qur'an... Today no sensible man accepts any of these theories!!"
Now here is the age-old Catholic Church, which has been around for so many centuries, denying these futile attempts to explain away the Qur'an.
Indeed, the Qur'an is a problem for the Catholic Church. It states that it is revelation, so they study it. Certainly, they would love to find proof that it is not, but they cannot. They cannot find a viable explanation. But at least they are honest in their research and do not accept the first unsubstantiated interpretation which comes along. The Church states that in fourteen centuries it has not yet been presented a sensible explanation. At least it admits that the Qur'an is not an easy subject to dismiss. Certainly, other people are much less honest. They quickly say, "Oh, the Qur'an came from here. The Qur'an came from there." And they do not even examine the credibility of what they are stating most of the time.
Of course, such a statement by the Catholic Church leaves the everyday Christian in some difficulty. It just may be that he has his own ideas as to the origin of the Qur'an, but as a single member of the Church, he cannot really act upon his own theory. Such an action would be contrary to the obedience, allegiance and loyalty which the Church demands. By virtue of his membership, he must accept what the Catholic Church declares without question and establish its teachings as part of his everyday routine. So, in essence, if the Catholic Church as a whole is saying, "Do not listen to these unconfirmed reports about the Qur'an," then what can be said about the Islamic point of view? If even non-Muslims are admitting that there is something to the Qur'an - something that has to be acknowledged - then why are people so stubborn and defensive and hostile when Muslims advance the very same theory? This is certainly something for those with a mind to contemplate - something to ponder for those of understanding!
Testimony of an Intellectual
Recently, the leading intellectual in the Catholic Church - a man by the name of Hans - studied the Qur'an and gave his opinion of what he had read. This man has been around for some time, and he is highly respected in the Catholic Church, and after careful scrutiny, he reported his findings, concluding, "God has spoken to man through the man, Muhammad." Again this is a conclusion arrived at by a non-Muslim source - the very leading intellectual of the Catholic Church himself!
I do not think that the Pope agrees with him, but nonetheless, the opinion of such a noted, reputed public figure must carry some weight in defense of the Muslim position. He must be applauded for facing the reality that the Qur'an is not something which can be easily pushed aside and that, in fact God is the source of these words.
As is evident from the aforementioned information, all of the possibilities have been exhausted, so the chance of finding another possibility of dismissing the Qur'an is nonexistent.
Burden of Proof on the Critic
If the book is not a revelation, then it is a deception; and if it is a deception, one must ask, "What is its origin? And where does it deceive us?" Indeed, the true answers to these questions shed light on the Qur'an's authenticity and silence the bitter unsubstantiated claims of the unbelievers.
Certainly, if people are going to insist that the Qur'an is a deception, then they must bring forth evidence to support such a claim. The burden of proof is on them, not us! One is never supposed to advance a theory without sufficient corroborating facts; so I say to them, "Show me one deception! Show me where the Qur'an deceives me! Show me, otherwise don't say that it is a deception!"
Origin of the Universe and Life
An interesting characteristic of the Qur'an is how it deals with surprising phenomena which relate not only to the past but to modern times as well. In essence, the Qur'an is not and old problem. It is still a problem even today - a problem to the non-Muslims that is. For everyday, every week, every year brings more and more evidence that the Qur'an is a force to be contended with - that its authenticity is no longer to be challenged! For example, one verse in the Qur'an (Surah al-Anbiya 21:30) reads:
"Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together, then We clove them asunder, and made from water every living thing? Will they not then believe?"
Ironically, this very information is exactly what they awarded the 1973 Noble Prize for - to a couple of unbelievers.
The Qur'an reveals the origin of the universe - how it began from one piece - and mankind continues to verify this revelation, even up to now. Additionally, the fact that all life originated from water would not have been an easy thing to convince people of fourteen centuries ago. Indeed, if 1400 years ago you had stood in the desert and told someone, "All of this, you see (pointing to yourself), is made up of mostly water," no one would have believed you. Proof of that was not available until the invention of the microscope. They had to wait to find out that cytoplasm, the basic substance of the cell, is made-up of 80% water. Nonetheless, the evidence did come, and once again the Qur'an stood the test of time.
More on Falsification Test
In reference to the falsification tests mentioned earlier, it is interesting to note that they, too, relate to both the past and the present. Some of them were used as illustrations of Allah's omnipotence and knowledge, while others continue to stand as challenges to the present day. An example of the former is the statement made in the Qur'an about Abu Lahab. It clearly illustrates that Allah, the Knower of the Unseen, knew that Abu Lahab would never change his ways and accept Islam. Thus Allah dictated that he would be condemned to the Hellfire forever. Such a chapter was both an illustration of Allah's divine wisdom and a warning to those who were like Abu Lahab.
People of the Book
An interesting example of the latter type of falsification tests contained in the Qur'an is the verse which mentions the relationship between the Muslims and the Jews. The verse is careful not to narrow its scope to the relationship between individual members of each religion, but rather, it summarizes the relationship between the two groups of people as a whole. In essence, the Qur'an states that the Christians will always treat the Muslims better than the Jews will treat the Muslims. Indeed, the full impact of such a statement can only be felt after careful consideration of the real meaning of such a verse. It is true that many Christians and many Jews have become Muslims, but as a whole, the Jewish community is to be viewed as an avid enemy of Islam. Additionally, very few people realize what such an open declaration in the Qur'an invites. In essence, it is an easy chance for the Jews to prove that the Qur'an is false - that it is not a divine revelation. All they have to do is organize themselves, treat the Muslims nicely for a few years and then say, "Now what does your holy book say about who are your best friends in the world - the Jews or the Christians? Look what we Jews have done for you!" That is all they have to do to disprove the Qur'an's authenticity, yet they have not done it in 1400 years. But, as always, the offer still stands open!
A Mathematical Approach
All of the examples so far given concerning the various angles from which one can approach the Qur'an have undoubtedly been subjective in nature; however, there does exist another angle, among others, which is objective and whose basis is mathematical.
It is surprising how authentic the Qur'an becomes when one assembles what might be referred to as a list of good guesses. Mathematically, it can be explained using guessing and prediction examples. For instance, if a person has two choices (i.e., one is right, and one is wrong), and he closes his eyes and makes a choice, then half of the time (i.e., one time out of two) he will be right. Basically, he has a one in two chance, for he could pick the wrong choice, or he could pick the right choice.
Now if the same person has two situations like that (i.e., he could be right or wrong about situation number one, and he could be right or wrong about situation number two), and he closes his eyes and guesses, then he will only be right one-fourth of the time (i.e., one time out of four). He now has a one in four chance because now there are three ways for him to be wrong and only one way for him to be right. In simple terms, he could make the wrong choice in situation number one and then make the wrong choice in situation number two; or he could make the wrong choice in situation number one and then make the right choice in situation number two; or he could make the right choice in situation number one and then make the wrong choice in situation number two; or he could make the right choice in situation number one and then make the right choice in situation number two.
Of course, the (only instance in which he could be totally right is the last scenario where he could guess correctly in both situations. The odds of his guessing completely correctly have become greater because the number of situations for him to guess in have increased; and the mathematical equation representing such a scenario is ½ x ½ (i.e., one time out of two for the first situation multiplied by one time out of two for the second situation).
Continuing on with the example, if the same person now has three situations in which to make blind guesses, then he will only be right one-eighth of the time (i.e., one time out of eight or ½ x ½ x ½ ). Again, the odds of choosing the correct choice in all three situations have decreased his chances of being completely correct to only one time in eight. It must be understood that as the number of situations increase, the chances of being right decrease, for the two phenomena are inversely proportional.
Now applying this example to the situations in the Qur'an, if one draws up a list of all of the subjects about which the Qur'an has made correct statements, it becomes very clear that it is highly unlikely that they were all just correct blind guesses. Indeed, the subjects discussed in the Qur'an are numerous, and thus the odds of someone just making lucky guesses about all of them become practically nil. If there are a million ways for the Qur'an to be wrong, yet each time it is right, then it is unlikely that someone was guessing.
The following three examples of subjects about which the Qur'an has made correct statements collectively illustrate how the Qur'an continues to beat the odds.
The Female Bee
In the 16th chapter (Surah an-Nahl 16:68-69) the Qur'an mentions that the female bee leaves its home to gather food. Now, a person might guess on that, saying, "The bee that you see flying around - it could be male, or it could be female. I think I will guess female." Certainly, he has a one in two chance of being right. So it happens that the Qur'an is right. But it also happens that that was not what most people believed at the time when the Qur'an was revealed. Can you tell the difference between a male and a female bee? Well, it takes a specialist to do that, but it has been discovered that the male bee never leaves his home to gather food. However, in Shakespeare's play, Henry the Fourth, some of the characters discuss bees and mention that the bees are soldiers and have a king. That is what people thought in Shakespeare's time - that the bees that one sees flying around are male bees and that they go home and answer to a king. However, that is not true at all. The fact is that they are females, and they answer to a queen. Yet it took modern scientific investigations in the last 300 years to discover that this is the case.
So, back to the list of good guesses, concerning the topic of bees, the Qur'an had a 50/50 chance of being right, and the odds were one in two.
The Sun
In addition to the subject of bees, the Qur'an also discusses the sun and the manner in which it travels through space. Again, a person can guess on that subject. When the sun moves through space, there are two options: it can travel just as a stone would travel if one threw it, or it can move of its own accord. The Qur'an states the latter - that it moves as a result of its own motion (Surah al-Anbiya 21:33). To do such, the Qur'an uses a form of the word sabaha to describe the sun's movement through space. In order to properly provide the reader with a comprehensive understanding of the implications of this Arabic verb, the following example is given.
If a man is in water and the verb sabaha is applied in reference to his movement, it can be understood that he is swimming, moving of his own accord and not as a result of a direct force applied to him. Thus when this verb is used in reference to the sun's movement through space, it in no way implies that the sun is flying uncontrollably through space as a result of being hurled or the like. It simply means that the sun is turning and rotating as it travels. Now, this is what the Qur'an affirms, but was it an easy thing to discover? Can any common man tell that the sun is turning? Only in modern times was the equipment made available to project the image of the sun onto a tabletop so that one could look at it without being blinded. And through this process it was discovered that not only are there spots on the sun but that these spots move once every 25 days. This movement is referred to as the rotation of the sun around its axis and conclusively proves that, as the Qur'an stated 1400 years ago, the sun does, indeed, turn as it travels through space.
And returning once again to the subject of good guesses, the odds of guessing correctly about both subjects - the sex of bees and the movement of the sun - are one in four!
Time Zones
Seeing as back fourteen centuries ago people probably did not understand much about time zones, the Qur'an's statements about this subject are considerably surprising. The concept that one family is having breakfast as the sun comes up while another family is enjoying the brisk night air is truly something to be marveled at, even in modern time. Indeed, fourteen centuries ago, a man could not travel more than thirty miles in one day, and thus it took him literally months to travel from India to Morocco, for example. And probably, when he was having supper in Morocco, he thought to himself, "Back home in India they are having supper right now." This is because he did not realize that, in the process of traveling, he moved across a time zone. Yet, because it is the words of Allah, the All-Knowing, the Qur'an recognizes and acknowledges such a phenomenon.
In an interesting verse it states that when history comes to an end and the Day of Judgement arrives, it will all occur in an instant; and this very instant will catch some people in the daytime and some people at night. This clearly illustrates Allah's divine wisdom and His previous knowledge of the existence of time zones, even though such a discovery was non-existent back fourteen centuries ago. Certainly, this phenomenon is not something which is obvious to one's eyes or a result of one's experience, and this fact, in itself, suffices as proof of the Qur'an's authenticity.
Conclusions
Returning one final time to the subject of good guesses for the purpose of the present example, the odds that someone guessed correctly about all three of the aforementioned subjects - the sex of bees, the movement of the sun and the existence of time zones - are one in eight!
Certainly, one could continue on and on with this example, drawing up longer and longer list of good guesses; and of course, the odds would become higher and higher with each increase of subjects about which one could guess. But what no one can deny is the following: the odds that Muhammad (s), an illiterate, guessed correctly about thousands and thousands of subjects, never once making a mistake, are so high that any theory of his authorship of the Qur'an must be completely dismissed - even by the most hostile enemies of Islam!
Indeed, the Qur'an expects this kind of challenge. Undoubtedly, if one said to someone upon entering a foreign land, "I know your father. I have met him," probably the man from that land would doubt the newcomer's word, saying, "You have just come here. How could you know my father?" As a result, he would question him, "Tell me, is my father tall, short, dark, fair? What is he like?" Of course, if the visitor continued answering all of the questions correctly, the skeptic would have no choice but to say, "I guess you do know my father. I don't know how you know him, but I guess you do!"
The situation is the same with the Qur'an. It states that it originates from the One who created everything. So everyone has the right to say, "Convince me! If the author of this book really originated life and everything in the heavens and on the earth, then He should know about this, about that, and so on." And inevitably, after researching the Qur'an, everyone will discover the same truths. Additionally, we all know something for sure: we do not all have to be experts to verify what the Qur'an affirms. One's iman (faith) grows as one continues to check and confirm the truths contained in the Qur'an. And one is supposed to do so all of his life.
May God (Allah) guide everyone close to the truth.
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zaheer - uddin (Zaheer)
Starlite Member
Username: Zaheer
| | Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 03:44 pm: |
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you can all read a translation of the Quran at
http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/SURAI.HTM |
ALIANNE OUSSAMEUR (Alianne)
Starlite Member
Username: Alianne
| | Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 01:25 pm: |
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Michael: What the Greatest and Wisest Man said about doctrines and tradition "...this people honour me with their lips but their hearts are far removed from me.It is in vain they worship me, because they teach as doctrines commands of men, letting go the commmandments of God, you hold fast the traditions of men...and thus you make the word of God invalidby by your tradition which you handed down. |
Michael .P (Mik3y)
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 11:27 pm: |
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Once again, we go to the Question and who wrote the Quran.
Michael william James
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ALIANNE OUSSAMEUR (Alianne)
Starlite Member
Username: Alianne
| | Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 03:21 pm: |
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84 The Quran shows Muhammed beleived in the Injil and the Torah. Say: 'We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the Prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islám).'
( Quran;Chap 3 V 84)
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Michael .P (Mik3y)
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 09:03 am: |
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Thankyou Bread Crumbs..i haven't the time for childs play true im 20 and i have a sense of humour at heart..but this is just stupid.
Michael william James
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Anita Stith Tafolla (A_r_tafolla)
Starlite Member
Username: A_r_tafolla
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 01:05 am: |
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I keep not meaning to post, and then my nasty sense of humor gets me caught up in trains of thoughts.
Quotation from Aliane post. "YOU MEAN YOU ARE JUST REPEATING WHAT YOU READ AND NOT WHAT YOU HAVE RESEARCHED???"
What is the difference simply reading the Bible with no additional research - and what you accused him of doing? You often do that.
However, I'll be honest ... I may be confusing you and Jasmine. You both seem to insist that research beyond the Bible implies lack of faith.
"The Opposite of War isn't Peace, it's Creation."
Jonathan Larson
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