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Michael .P (Mik3y)
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 07:44 am: | 
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Stuart yes there have been alot of natural disasters over the years, and never mind talk of wars there has actually been World Wars!
It is evident that man has learnt much from God in this area, although there is still a large majority of people who obviously have not accepted War as Futile.
As for revelations it is not talking about a church that does good in the name of God, but one that is in war with Him!
Perhaps you need to know the meaning of "Saint" before you say anymore on this. Of course i want Christ to come back, and yes i can acknowledge sciences findings about the state of the earth..but rather than getting caught up with doomsday which we will never live to see lets focus on living our own Faith..because death does not discriminate my friend. The only time you have is now, Young people die too..you may not have to wait for doomsday even.
My friend stuart i do not come to defend my faith for you or anyone. I simply help you guys understand how things really are when i see you are unsure. I.e your mis conception of Revelations and false rumours about the Pope and the Church etc. No one from the Catholic Church, especially not the head assumes position in line or over God. The word representitive as you well know does not mean "REPLACEMENT".
As for you been spiteful..i do not think so. However i do think your blanks get filled in by rumours and half truths in place of your uncertainty and i'd like to help you where i can with that 
The most offensive thing you've said against the Church is that the Head of it under God ..the Pope [nowdays pope benedict the 16th] is the Anti christ. Im always open to the truth stuart..But all i can see is you accusing the Pope of being the Anti christ..but nothing more. No examples of actions of the Pope which might even hint towards him Being the Antichrist..not even some firm reasons why he is the Anti christ. So in reply to your empty accusation..i really cant accept it as truth. You supplied the 666 inscribed on the Popes crown rumour ..which was proven to be rubbish! The witnesses that testified to seeing such a thing were proven liars, and there is no evidence to suggest the claim either. So now i ask you why do you still hold belief in the Pope being the Anti christ?
What has the Church done to you to offend you that much that you would be so strong in belief that it is at the head of Satan on earth?
Michael william James
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Just Plain Me (Just_plain_me)
Starlite Member
Username: Just_plain_me
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 07:50 pm: |
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When "everyone" sees us differently than we see ourselves, it's usually because we are not being honest with ourself.
Truly, your words are NOT loving, they are not inviting anyone to follow your path. I rarely use the threads to criticize others ... but I felt impelled to object that instead of sharing your own path of salvation, you insisted on criticizing others.
If what we believe is true and genuine, others will see it. It is NOT necessary to attack wrong beliefs - they will prove themselves to be what they are.
Plus, from a practical standpoint ... no one changes when another stands and charges them with misbehavior. Instead they defend, and often stop thinking entirely. Far better to simply talk about the love of Christ and how it has illuminated and changed your own life.
You believe no man speaks with God. I believe there are prophets as in the days of old that do have that ability. What they have told us for nearly two hundred years is that we are to live a life that attracts - and not criticize the beliefs of others. |
Stuart Chugg (Antipodi)
Starlite Member
Username: Antipodi
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 07:19 pm: |
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Why does everybody think I am being spiteful it is sad that all I am trying to do is point out the way we have gone astray and the many in the church who have done this if you put yourself on a high pedestal you should make sure you have the right to be there . You are right the truth will prevail. I have spoken nothing but love for my fellow christians it frustrates me that many have sadly been lead astray by mere mortals. They have lost the TRUE message of message of Christ, the work of his followers and Most importantly the real Laws of God. No Man is holy enough to assume they are on a par with God or speak to him. We can only read his book , follow his law and love all people..That is all I am trying to do..Yes there are decievers in the church and many have been decieved..they are human..not holy or devine |
Just Plain Me (Just_plain_me)
Starlite Member
Username: Just_plain_me
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 06:41 pm: |
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Stuart, I suspect most who receive these threads feel much as I do. I am heartily SICK of your tirades against the Catholic Church. They are certainly not examples of the loving lifestyle that Christ embodies.
So, I'll give you a new target. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, sometimes called Mormons. We also consider our church President to be a special representative of God, a modern day Prophet. We believe that everything he says is truth - and interesting enough, he NEVER says things like the spite coming out of your mouth.
Since this thread is about the Sabbath - will also add an opinion on that. God spoke to Joseph Smith about the things that needed changing in the churches of the early 18th century. He never mentioned that we needed to start using Saturday rather than Sunday. Therefore, I consider worshiping on Sunday acceptable to him. I suspect God is far more irritated by those who think and do negative things on Saturdays and Sundays than he is about the technicalities of which is "his" day.
If you like, you can start posting nasty things about my church ... but I'll probably be a disappointment to you. I doubt I'll try to defend as Mik does - the truth needs no defense. Its actions shine and soften the heart and Spirit. |
Stuart Chugg (Antipodi)
Starlite Member
Username: Antipodi
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 05:46 pm: |
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Can you please tell me how he(the pope) chooses (identifies and blesses)the Saints to live in Heaven , does his gold telephone have a direct connection to God? Or does he have a vision? No earthly things or proof will ever give a person the right to declare another a Saint, this only God can do so that in itself is blasphemy. regarding the so called Doomsday ..Look around you..is the world not a sick place for a devout Christian/believer to live in I repreat read the Revelation and see for yourself. Part of the so called myth you speak of says the Lord shall let loose the four winds and There shall be earthquakes in divers places. The Tsunami although caused by a known fault line caused a wave that has NEVER before in written history hit so many places and killed so many people ..sad but true..The Hurricanes ..again when in history have we seen such terrible devestation. Not to mention "Wars and Rhumours of Wars" why these days the evilness of it all the favourite saying is "We need to fight the War to make Peace" how can this be so? if it is we are doomed..No my friend we need Jesus to come back and take back his world and restore the balance and yes for those believers it will be a great and joyous day for they will have nothing to fear but for the unbelievers it will be a very fearful day...I personally look forward to it ..Christ is my saviour and he is yours to not a Pope a human saint or any other being , he the son of God and only he can save us now.Also if you talk to most meteoroligists they now agree the Earth is in heat up mode on a destructive path , they no longer deny it. Dont you want Christ to come back..I do and always will. |
Michael .P (Mik3y)
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 08:10 am: |
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I'd have more faith in your doomsday theories if you had some evidence to suggest why. All i see at the moment are generalised assumptions by you..and i wonder what authority you have. You forget that it Was Jesus who gave such authority to Peter! Does that mean Peter was equal to God? No! Did the line of authority just die when Peter died? No.
The Pope does not ordain dead people to be Saints. He blesses in Gods name those who have reached eternal life with the Father Himself.
Michael william James
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Stuart Chugg (Antipodi)
Starlite Member
Username: Antipodi
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 04:14 pm: |
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Tis true there are no dead Human souls in heaven..I am glad you finally agree that is because the Bible says this outright and NO POPE can ordane DEAD people to be SAINTS. GOD is the only authority to do that ..it would be blasphemy to even think so..being given so called represention doesnt mean he has power over life and death that would put him on an equal footing with God. Regarding the doomsday situation LOOK AROUND YOU this world is deteriorating and it is all because of man and his GOOD deeds, there IS no solution for Peace, war is becomming eternal, greed and deciet are commonplace everywhere. The only way this earth is going to survive now is for Christ to return and destroy sin and to renew this earth. NO MAN can do a deed GOOD enough to bring it back on path. As I have said there are many GOOD and righteous peolple in the church it is only the leadership that has lost its way and spreads a message of confusion and sometimes even deciet. That is why many unbelievers have suffered at the churches hands and will continue to do so until Christ revisits this earth to take control. It is not a doomsday forcast for good decent people, it is a wonderful promise of true redemption that is for all the righteous, those alive and those alseep in their graves for many years.
(Message edited by antipodi on September 23, 2005) |
Michael .P (Mik3y)
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 09:36 am: |
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No one in heaven is dead my friend
I can not believe your assumptions when they have no proof to back them up as truth. so what you say as truth is only truth to you and if you'd like to share with me some evidence that backs up your claims im all ears as i've said time and time again.
As for your doomsday advice, it seems a little ignorant to focus on all the negativity and not see all the Good Gods people are doing currently!
Michael william James
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Stuart Chugg (Antipodi)
Starlite Member
Username: Antipodi
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 05:00 pm: |
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It is very sad that you cannot acknowledge the fact the Sabbath day was changed for the convenience if the church and its towards pagan beliefs of worshiping idols through the farce of dead people you call saints.The rubbish about being frightened to worship on saturday shows a lack of faith as faith transcends fear. The true fact is God consecrated Saturday, the italians acknoledge it as the Sabbath so why do they worship on the sunday..is that not hypocrasy. No my friend the Bible knew that in these modern times there would be alot of religons that went astray and to define the true pathway(not religion) in Revelation the statement made was "These are they that keep my commandments" and "By their works ye shall know them" Both refer to the Laws of God ..Not the laws or traditions of men. It also says the Dead are asleep until the resserection at the second comming of the son of God. How will we know this time , if we read the revelation it points heavliy to a time of great roubles and tribulation a time of many natural disasters and people "Giving and taking in Marriage" a time when evil has become an accepted part of society. I believe that time is very near and it also says "Even the very elect shall be decieved" No my friend we as true Christians should not be fighting over Gods law we should be defending it , we should also recognise the other sheep and their compassion to God i.e. Gods chosen ones the Jews and their brothers and sisters the Muslims..they too have a place reserved specially for them as long as they follow Gods law, not the traditions and edicts that were done away with at the great sacrifice. What was the story of modern times and when was it first predicted if you read the book of Daniel I think you find some light on this subject too. We must all come together relearn the ways of love, accept God and recieve Christ into our hearts and ask him and only him to intercede (not mary, saints or priests)on our behalf to God. We must also follow his commandments not the false doctrines put about by an establishment gone wide and astray of their own path. |
Michael .P (Mik3y)
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 08:11 am: |
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Are you saying abstaining from Sex is not natural, even impossible ? You'd be trying to go against what even science knows as true. Chastity is very much so a natural gift given from God, just as marriage is. I can't believe you would imply that it is unnatural when there is so much evidence against what you say. You make it almost sound like fact..which is far from it.
That is not true at all about the jews.. hardly anyone knew how to read back then and also in the early catholic church time as well only very educated men could read and write.
Most modern protestants are at war with the Early protestants even. The fact is the Catholic Church was the origin after the Jews. All modern day protestants and other sects came from the Catholic church division. There were no protestants in the early ages..this is fact. I did not claim to have the one true religion..i said The catholic church was the orgin at which all these other christian churches came from.
The Catholic church has never changed any of Gods Laws like you mentioned they had. Just like the Catholics and christians didn't always have a Bible, the Jews didn't always have a torah!
As for the Pope knowing much about the sex scandals..i doubt that very much and with what he did know he tried to deal with it the best way he could. You forget that if such things are told in confidence within the Sacrament of Reconciliation it cannot be told to anyone! So that is why it is not possible for the Church to have dealt with the issue like the media demands them to! Im also pretty sure that apologies were made in reply to the surfacing of this filth that a few men brought into the Church. When i say a few i do mean a few..the majority of priests have not and would not ever condone such filth. If your trying to make a link between chastity and sexual crimes your wasting your time. There are plenty of married, or single men/women who commit these horrible crimes. It is not because they do not have sex! It is because of how they do not chose God but evil when given the chance to decide.
Like i said, when you make such hard accusations please provide some proof, because i will with all the knowledge i know correct any wrong you have said about the church or anyone. We should all be honest here and not listen to lies, or misleading information. Just the other day i had some ignorant guy walk up to me and say oh only catholics worship saints. This was right after i had a great time at an inter faith workshop project. Some people still don't get it. Although i did not take this personally because this young man also said that religion was not about a God but a way of life :\
He said he was studying religion..i'd luv to know whos teaching this poor boy!?
Michael william James
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Stuart Chugg (Antipodi)
Starlite Member
Username: Antipodi
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 11:47 pm: |
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Sadly you do not seem to remember when the Church simply relocated priests who endulged in the horrid practices of which we spoke and I can only say that The Pope must have had some knowedge of what was going on. It is his apathy that I abhore just ask the victims of these haeneous cimes.I also question the very act of a priest being celebrant, for one thing it is not natural, it is a fertile ground from the deviant behaviour of some Priests. I am not saying that the apostles were not ordained to carry the message of God around all I am saying is how many of them lived in their own lavish Kingdom surrounded by adoring cardinals assisting to spread the word ..Most of them according to Bible lived a life of abstenace and were supported by believers at a subsistance level only. As far as what christians had access to the Bible the Jews had the sacred scriptures in their Temple and it was made available to many, It was actually the Catholic Church that made it impossible for the ordinary people to read the bible having much of their sermons said in Latin even to this day. It was the Protestant faiths that made the Bible more readily available and then enightenment into Gods ways was really understood. Sadly you missed that fact. Yes my friend there has been for many years written accounts that have been available and gathered together of God and that was the Bible NOT any other form of doctrine that apologised for changing Gods Laws. Sadly I disagree with you over the your opinion on the Jews ..if it wasnt for their love and enlightenment of God (his chosen and much loved people) there would be no form of Christianity even in its altered for convenience form that you preach. The jews were chosen by God and therefore his people we are his other sheep so please dont say horrible rubbish about your religion having exclusive understanding of the true God cause it just isnt so, there are too many contradictions in the Phylosphy and we or anybody else are not superior in our faith to another..it is our personal relationship and committement with Jesus and God that really matters..NOT DOCTRINE |
Michael .P (Mik3y)
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 08:24 pm: |
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Stuart would you be daring enough to suggest that the Pope was apart of these horrid sex crimes? Or be Hinting that the Pope Encouraged such Rubbish?!
I have never come across information which has even hinted towards such things, so if you have any im all ears eyes and nose!
As for the inquisition i agree that was horrible, but such was the nature of man around this time. You will see throughout the ages mans attitude to love has grown. God is constantly helping us grow, we are not ever fully grown here on earth..we will never know enough to stop learning. Such is the way with man as is the church, it too also grows and learns in Gods Wisdom and love. Evidence of this? Well have you seen the church hint towards another inquisition? Most certainly not..would they even dare consider such horrible ideas nowdays? No.
The Pope as you well know does not put himself into the High position, The Holy spirit inspires the decisions of the Cardinals who vote that they chose the best most suited Pope for the time. The Pope is then asked to accept the role, and he dare not refuse when they believe the Holy spirit has spoken to the Cardinals and guided there decision to chose the man for the Job.
While revelations does speak about the number of the beast it is of no reference to the Pope. There was never 666 inscribed onto the Popes crown at all, nor does the Pope even wear the crown nowdays. Many of those who were the source of this rumour were actually proven to have bore false witness. Explanation for this i guess some people are just after division in the church, because they know divided we fall.
The Big question i have for those who Say the Bible is the only word of God etc, is what then did man do before he had the Bible?! When Jesus died who then did the people go to for God?
The apostles were given the authority to perform such sacraments and give mass etc, it is from them that the authority has been passed down to the Church, which today practices just as its originators did BEFORE the Bible was even written. So if you do hold the Bible so strongly ask yourself what you would do, where you would be without it?
The truth is alot of the Protestants, and other religious groups who were formed after Catholicism would not exist had there not been the Catholic Church. That is a very harsh truth for some to acknowledge, but it is a valid truth. Much the same as Catholicsm could not have been made if there were no Jews. But more importantly without Jesus Christ the Jews would not be allowed to accept the new knowledge he had given them about God. Not that it was new, but it was a more deeper understanding of what the Jewish people already knew in their hearts. [If this offends anyone i am sorry, i am merely speaking about The Catholic Churchs views which i too share] I hope this helps your understanding of the CATHOLIC church
cheers,
MiCk.
Michael william James
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Stuart Chugg (Antipodi)
Starlite Member
Username: Antipodi
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 05:12 pm: |
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Why did the Pope EVER wear that crown and why did the Bible who points out the righteous even mention this number if not as a warning of deciet. Sadly a large number of devout catholics are very much true Christians and therefore I do not hate the church only the austentatious workings of one man a man who through history has abused that power ordained by a Church that claims to represent God and has on many occasions in his name commited terrible crimes, The Inquisition, Selling of Indulgences, The priesthood taking advantage of young boys and don't say these things never happened because they did ..How do you think this changes the persception of unbelievers..no my friend it only gives them ammunition for the dark side..The pope put himself in a high office position (just as Satan offered to Jesus when he was on earth)and predictably being human this man has succumbed to the luxuries and the corruption of this high office. Christ who was our real and ONLY leader on this earth and beyound NEVER accepted this type of representation for that very reason. Christ is and always was my ONLY Vicor of God.
(Message edited by antipodi on September 21, 2005) |
Michael .P (Mik3y)
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 12:00 am: |
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Stuart it is not under my perception that Jesus broke the Sabbath either..since i believe Jesus is in the Father and the Father in the son etc it would be ridiculous to think that God could break his own rule. I was however talking about the jewish thoughts on this shown in the Bible. The jews accused Jesus of breaking the sabbath..as Jesus said if he was to be totally technical and anal about the whole thing He was breaking the Jews idea of the Sabbath at least. In doing this though Jesus showed the real meaning of the Sabbath. If man is to do the Lords work everyday he or she cannot be breaking the sabbath. Sunday worship was lead from the Apostles who were given the authority from The Son who is in the Father, as the Father is in the Son.
Acts are most definitely an outward sign of loving God, which is why i fail to see how you can go past the church and buy into silly rumours that the Church is run and is an organisation of the Devil. I understand your not been blunt here and saying you hate the church, but to say Satan is the Head of the Church is far worse than any atheist telling me how he hates the Church. If you are going to imply such things as The Pope is the Anti christ etc it'd be good if you could provide some evidence for this, otherwise why are you believing in those people who have bore false witness?! The 666 in latin on the Popes crown he does not even wear any more is just one of these stupendous rumours going around. I can't stop anyone believing in them, but i can ask as to why they do.
Michael william James
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Stuart Chugg (Antipodi)
Starlite Member
Username: Antipodi
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 02:55 am: |
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Again you have it wrong to save life is to glorify God, to do good to another is to glorify God and yet you say this is breaking the Sabbath a totally illconcieved idea. To heal the sick is an act again that glorifies God. The idea of the Sabbath is to contemplate and worship God not to allow one to die or get sick as these things would be abandoning the very teachings of God . Sadly you have got it very wrong. just because I will not believe the ideals of a Church that has lost its way does not mean I hate Catholics indeed I respect that they believe they follow God that is the very reason I am talking to you as Christ spoke to the Pharacies ( trying to follow his example) he realised although they had walked away from the path of light they were still seeking it and therefore just needed to be shown. You dont seem to understand that saving life, healing the sick , giving food to the poor , preaching are all acts that glorify and enhance God these acts can and do require an efforts sometimes a herculan effort, do you think God ever meant us to abandon these things and just laze about all day doing nothing. This is not glorifying God and sadly your are very confused on this issue. The Bible says "By their ways ye shall know them " and this shows how important acts that glorify God are. Maybe you should look very closely at the misinformation you are getting for ALL are excuses for defying God and they only as I said before give ammunition to those who do not believe..that act in itself gives way to the riducule. Fact is yes we should pray and worship God EVERY day but we MUST keep the Sabbath Holy to show our respect to God and life he created. It is cold hearted Business that should not be conducted on the Sabbath mainly and the indulgences that take our thoughts from God and act of kindness, caring or compassion will not. Again I reiterate CHRIST NEVER broke the Sabbath nor did he encourage others to do so. Show me the specific words that say it is alright to break the Sabbath against Gods law..I think you might find texts that can be twisted if taken out of context but they would be rare and maybe you should read the whole text and the story before.
(Message edited by antipodi on September 19, 2005) |
Michael .P (Mik3y)
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 01:11 am: |
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It was the jews who said Jesus was blaspheming for working on the sabbath. To which he gave the idea of them saving a drowning cattle on the sabbath. It was the Apostles who lead the christians in sunday worship. I'd say a big reason why they did this was because they would be persecuted if seen during the day..and they would actually start from the saturday night and go into the sunday. As for putting the apostles on the same level of God it is not true. God himself gave the authority to the Apostles, this is written in the Bible. Jesus was a practical thinker, like he said to the jews if a cattle was drowning you would save it, if a man/woman is dying i will save them sabbath day or not. If the apostles were been prosecuted it would be sensible for them to worship at night on the saturday rather then during the day. To imply that the sabbath was changed purely for convenience or something selfish like that is absurd and of no value at all, there is no proof given by you or anyone to say that it was for convenience. If the apostles were to teach and worship on the sunday then it was in Gods authority that they did so..for if you read the Bible you will see after been given the authority all that they bind on earth shall be bound in heaven. Doomsday theories about the pope being the Anti christ and rumours that the church changed the sabbath for selfish reasons for mere convenience is rubbish. None of these rumours amount to any truth. It is propaganda written by those who hate the Catholic church..if you have hate in your heart for anyone how can you be teaching any brother or sister? If we are to miss Jesus's message to us then we are to mis interpret the old testament.
Michael william James
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Stuart Chugg (Antipodi)
Starlite Member
Username: Antipodi
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 10:10 pm: |
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You are mixing up tradition with Gods instruction in the Ten commandments which is typical of Many religions who use the excuse when it is that it has been blatenly changed by man and NOT with Gods consent. All I hear in your explaination is rhetoric as for Christ saying the Sabbath was made for Man that is so true it was made for man to ensure his reverence to God is it no irreverant to change it with Gods approval. The apostles NOWHERE in history changed the Sabbath to Sunday , it is rediculas to say that because the Apostles rested on Sunday it was changed that would mean you are saying they on the same level as God. Also on the Sabbath one is meant to contemplate and worship God , In healing the sick Christ many times said Go and Sin no more this was an act of adoration of his father not a breaking of the Sabbath so please dont tell me Christ broke the Sabbath as that is true Blasphamy. As for the Jewish faith worshipping the Sabbath from Friday to Sunday that is totally inncorrect because the actual mesurement of the Sabbath (and ask any of your Jewish friends this) is from Sundown on Friday Night to Sundown on Saturday night and that is all there is to that. There were masny customs not decreed directly by God by the Priests of Israel to remind the people of the comming of Jesus(The Lamb Sacrifice for instance) to this earth and his dying for us. When he was crucified on the cross these things were completed and no longer valid ..BUT NOT THE SABBATH ..for it is a law of God and that will not be changed till the end of time. THIS IS CLEARLY DOCUMENTED IN THE BIBLE. IT is one of the ten commandments WRITTEN BY GODS OWN HAND and the Revelation the last and most recent book of the bible states the real followers of Christ ..These are they that keep my commandments..Please dont tell me that the Church has not changed the Sabbath for their own convenience..sadly this dilutes the message and gives ammunition to unbelievers whom laugh at us when we preach Gods love and laws..I would be interested in Tess's input in this discussion.. Just on the Law of the Sabbath not the peripheral issues..I know for a fact from my own Jewish friends that Saturady is one of the most Scared days of the week to them and I admire the tenacity and loyalty to their God for holding onto that truth..Not wavering |
Michael .P (Mik3y)
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 08:33 pm: |
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Okay, i've done quite a bit of research on this particular question for you Chugg hope it helps people understand this issue a bit more.
I have found many sites on this, Catholic ones, jewish, muslim, protestant, adventist .. alot lol They all seem to have alot ot say on the matter.
This first point you made Stuart was that the "Modern" christian church made the change, and that they did it to suit "Themselves"
This might be true stuart depending on what your definition of modern is?! Christians have been attending masses and so forth on Sunday since as early as the First 3 centuries.
The rumour you mentioned about Emperor constantine changing the sabbath is not true either. For the Apostles would be the first who would teach and practice the sunday rest, constantine merely made it more noticable and Law. Sunday is not the day or woship for the sun God. There are many extreme Freaky in my opinion fundamentalists who love to convince people that if they rest on sunday or attend a mass that they are some how worshiping the Sun God. Truth be told Jewish people actually celebrated the Sabbath from the friday to the sunday!
It was Jesus himself who broke the sabbath and said the words ever so clear that the sabbath was made for man, but man was not made for the sabbath. Jesus would heal the blind and do Gods work on the day of the Sabbath.. Thus Jesus said to us that necessities for man and woman are first..he says to save the drowning cattle on the sabbath etc. The new testament takes the old teaching on the sabbath and modifies it to a new light. Jesus says that everyday is the sabbath, that we must do Gods work regardless of what day it is. Jesus also makes this evident whenhe breaks the bread. Breaking the bread is more significant then it sounds today to most people. Breaking the bread was very symbolic to the Jewish people. It was the Apostles not the Pagans who would rest on the sunday and celebrate Christ. It is from the Apostles that the people were taught to rest and celebrate mass on the sunday. Pagans would of had an odd twist on this the sunday is the day of the sun, saturn etc Constantine did not make every body rest and celebrate on a sunday intially. This was already happening long before his time through the Apostles. It would have been around 33 AD when the Apostles introduced sunday worship. It is important to note that by doing as Jesus says keeping everyday Holy and reverant to God that we cannot be spoiling the sabbath day whether it is a sunday or a saturday!
Since we know it was changed long before the second century we know that constantine had nothing to do with it, nor did the pope as some suggest [any modern pope that is] im sure peter was there with the apostles in sunday worship. We can also see that sunday worship is not in any way a modern change to suit our needs in any way. But more importantly is that we keep every day holy and reverant for God. The other important thing to note is the sabbath originally went from friday to sunday. So if you were to ask who truely inspired sunday worship? You would be talking about God, and how his Son was sent down to show the jewish people and pagans that everyday is Gods day. You would also be talking about the apostles who were handed the authority from God Himself
While this particular article i found is mostly talking about the adventist beliefs, it really hits home on a few of the questions you've been asking stuart about the Pope being the anti christ, the sabbath law been broken by man etc
http://www.catholic.com/library/Seventh_Day_Adventism.asp
I hope this post helps your understanding on a few things Stuart it has helped me too because before i honestly did not know alot on the teaching of the sabbath Boy am i glad i had an idea that i must give everyday up for God though heh
Michael william James
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Stuart Chugg (Antipodi)
Starlite Member
Username: Antipodi
| | Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 12:38 am: |
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Please tell me why Saturday is Sabbat in Italian?????????????? |
Michael .P (Mik3y)
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 10:29 pm: |
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Zaheer did not explain at all why the Sabbath day was changed so don't be loading any guns yet chugg sheeesh. There are alot of rules that are man made that did not Come from Gods mouth in the exact words we use today.. MANY. We don't have God on earth speaking to us all in an audiable way showing us how to live like babies. I said i will find out "WHY" it was changed..we already know HOW it was changed as Zaheer just regurgitated again. It was a decision made by man absolutely..but the key question is WHY? And let me assure you chugg it was NOT for convenience. How you could imagine such vulgarness of the church is beyond me, but oh well Hope to get back to you soon on this
Michael william James
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Stuart Chugg (Antipodi)
Starlite Member
Username: Antipodi
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 05:17 pm: |
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So man did change the Sabbath not because God told him(Not one jot nor one title of the law shall be changed) but for the convenience of distancing themselves from the Jewish faith and compromise of Pagan faith, has anybody wondered why the Ten Commandments (of which one is The Sabbath keeping) was written exclusivly by Gods' hand , does anybody think it might be because this document maybe the most important document of all christian documents and also neutralising ownership of any religon or creed but for ALL..So why do we defy God because of human jealousy and ignorance or something more sinsiter.. |
zaheer - uddin (Zaheer)
Starlite Member
Username: Zaheer
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 02:48 pm: |
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During the period 30 CE to 313 CE, Christians lived in a predominately Pagan world. There was a mosaic of Pagan religions in the Roman Empire:
The long established, official religion of the Roman Empire was Pagan. It involved worship of -- or at least nominal sacrifices to -- a pantheon of Roman deities, both Gods and Goddesses.
A strong competitor to Christianity in those days was a third religion: Mithraism. This faith involved the worship of a Persian God Mithra, and was popular among the Roman civil service and military.
There were many other smaller religions, including the Pagan religions of Greece and Egypt, and the mystery religions.
The Roman religion and Mithraism reserved Sunday as their day of religious observance. Many Christians were probably tempted to follow suit.
The Christians were also motivated to change the Sabbath day as a method of distancing themselves from the Jews. Two reasons were:
The Government intermittently persecuted the Jews at this time; it was safer for Christianity to be considered as a separate religion rather than as a sect of Judaism.
Relations between the Jews and Christians was hostile at this time. The early Christian church had suffered much persecution from the Jews.
In 321 CE, while a Pagan sun-worshiper, the Emperor Constantine declared that Sunday was to be a day of rest throughout the Roman Empire:
"On the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country however persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits because it often happens that another day is not suitable for gain-sowing or vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost."
The Church Council of Laodicea circa 364 CE ordered that religious observances were to be conducted on Sunday, not Saturday. Sunday became the new Sabbath. They ruled: "Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday, but shall work on that day." There are many indicators in the historical record that some Christians ignored the Church's ruling. Sabbath observance was noted in Wales as late as 1115 CE. Francis Xavier was concerned about Sabbath worship in Goa, India in 1560 CE; he called for the Inquisition to set up an office there to stamp out what he called "Jewish wickedness". A Catholic Provincial Council suppressed the practice in Norway in 1435 CE.
History reveals that it was decades after the death of the apostles that a politico-religious system repudiated the Sabbath of Scripture and substituted the observance of the first day of the week. The following quotations, from Roman Catholic sources, freely acknowledge that there is no Biblical authority for the observance of Sunday, that it was the Roman Church that changed the Sabbath to the first day of the week
http://www.daytonavisit.com/sabbath/topic132.htm |
Michael .P (Mik3y)
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 06:38 am: |
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I am still researching this assumption. I had one priest explain to me in part, but he didn't have time to go into detail..but im assured by his word for now that it was in no way changed for convenience!
Michael william James
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Michael .P (Mik3y)
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 04:23 pm: |
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Lol oh the pagan theory..so if i do anything on sunday i'd be worshiping the Sun God. Heh well im not going to go dive into a rumour, ill find out some info on this and post it here later cheers,
MiCk.
Michael william James
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Stuart Chugg (Antipodi)
Starlite Member
Username: Antipodi
| | Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 02:13 am: |
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Rhumour has it Emporer Constantine changed it by decree for his own purpose . But NO WHERE in the bible is it mentioned being changed. The sabbath is God's most holy day and we have twisted it for for our own means..Strange Sunday is about woshiping the sun god. |
Michael .P (Mik3y)
Starlite Member
Username: Mik3y
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 07:45 pm: |
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I do have to ask what you base your assumption on that the day was changed purely for convenience.
p.s I keep getting dead links on the forums now..i keep having to press back twice and try again. If Tess or Albert reads this could you tell me why this is happening?!
Michael william James
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Stuart Chugg (Antipodi)
Starlite Member
Username: Antipodi
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 05:47 pm: |
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Exodus 20:8-12 "Remember the Sabbath Day by keeping it holy.Six days shalt thou labour and do all thy work but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God"
The original Jewish Sabbath day was Saturday(they still worship that Day!) from sundown Friday night to Sundown Saturday night. For some strange reason (and no it is NOT justified in the bible, on the contrary it is reinforced as not being changed for eternity"These are they that keep my commandments" and "Not one Jot nor one tittle of the Laws of God shall be changed till the end of time") the modern christian church deemed it necessary to change the day to suit themselves. Being part of the bibles most important messages, given direct by God " I ask why and how can it be justified, the Italian Language denotes Saturday as "Sabat" and the Greek as Similar word, so even in the lanuages of so called christianties modern orign it is recognised..Is this a law of God we have changed for convenience ..How do we feel God thinks of being a God of convenience? Sad I expect... |
